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11-29-2002, 02:14 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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orcs and goblins- what's the difference???
Will someone please explain to me what the difference is between orcs and goblins. Are they the same or are they completely different. Are they almost the same or are they almost completely different. Is it just the names??? Will someone please tell me. Also, why did Tolkien switch from goblins to orcs when he went from the Hobbit to LOTR??? Is anyone else as confused as me?
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11-29-2002, 02:19 PM | #2 |
Wight
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its all in the name there both the same thing tolkien alternated between both names from time to time
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11-29-2002, 07:02 PM | #3 |
World's Tallest Hobbit
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I'm not too sure of the truth but I do have my own theories on this. Goblin is merely another name for Orc. Orc is a translation of the Sindarin orch. Basically, goblin can be used a a sort of slang term to refer to the smaller breeds of orcs. I don't know why Tolkien used goblin in the Hobbit and orc in the LotR. A
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11-29-2002, 07:46 PM | #4 |
Wight
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im shure the word orc appears in the hobbit but im not 100%
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11-29-2002, 09:06 PM | #5 |
World's Tallest Hobbit
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Yes, it did. Gandalf used it when describing the goblins of the Grey Mountains. he said something about "great hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description."
Also, when Tolkien was talking about the goblins chasing silently after the dwarves in the tunnels I think he said something like, "the huge orcs of the mountains went along at a great pace with their arms hanging down to the ground." Sorry I don't have the exact quotes, but I lent my copy of the Hobbit to a friend, so I can't look them up.
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11-29-2002, 09:18 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Argh....third time's the charm....
Not to take this out on anyone in particular, but this needs to be understood. The Hobbit was written as a children's story, so it used well-known (with the exceptions of Hobbits) fantasy stereotypes at the time. Goblins, instead of orcs. Smaug, the Dragon. Happy Elves, Dwarves, etc. The Lord of the Rings was an epic adventure, for more mature audiences. Tolkien could create more of a story, so creating his own race of bad guys worked a lot better. Remember, The Hobbit wasn't originally supposed to be part of the Silmarillion/Middle-earth saga; Tolkien found it fit when he started writing LotR. He didn't know that the "hobgoblins" of the Misty Mountains were the same as the Orcs from Angband. But, for continuity's sake, they're the same thing.
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11-29-2002, 09:53 PM | #7 |
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I knew somebody who knew what he was talking about would come along sooner or later. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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03-30-2006, 09:00 AM | #8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I hate to disagree
Orc-Bigger than goblins stronger however not so much free will(they were mostly slaves) and lets say not so bright(not dumb or stupid just not bright)I also theorized elsewhere they are a all male society relied on rape as a means of reproduction Goblins-Samller less powerful but far more independent and intelligent so much so they have their own government system and in fact learnings in history and reading. being alone in the mountains so long its obviuous female goblins must exist in order to create such a vast population(i believe they are very close in behavior to ants therefore rely on a central queen) Uruk-hai(being combined of the two races) have a multiplied strength and intelligence
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03-30-2006, 10:08 AM | #9 |
Twisted Taleswapper
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I always thought that Goblins were sort of a cave dwelling Orc. The are smaller, faster, can climb up walls. In the movies they attack the fellowship in Moria am I correct? They seem to have larger eyes as well to see better in the dim light. Ors seem larger,dumber and mostly in the service of the bad guys. The Goblins seem to do their own thing.
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03-30-2006, 10:26 AM | #10 |
Late Istar
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Neither goblins nor orcs ever climbed up walls in anything Tolkien wrote.
It's interesting to hear people's opinions, but can anyone actually provide evidence suggesting that "orc" and "goblin" are not synonyms? All that I can think of is the quote about "hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", which might (possibly) suggest that there is a distinction, at the least, between hobgoblins and orcs - though it's quite hard to say, as the word "hobgoblin" is not used elsewhere by Tolkien, as far as I can recall. I think that, at the very most, the distinction is a loose, "racial" one. I don't think there's any doubt that the Great Goblin, Azog, Grishnakh, Ugluk, and the rest belong to a single class of creatures called yrch. |
03-30-2006, 10:27 AM | #11 |
Shady She-Penguin
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I wouldn't say that goblins are cleverer than orcs! On the contrary. Orcs were mightier beings in intelligence too, or so I believe.
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03-30-2006, 04:29 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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yes but when have you heard of an orc quoting history
the goblin king in fact knows the history behind bilbo's sword(so do his followers) Orcs only ask about how good sport hobbits give Orcs in my opinion resemble neanderthals they have a chief and live in packs while goblins are more feudal with a king and im willing to bet a better knack at inventing(they live in caves...deep in caves)one can assume theyre excellent trap makers for food while orcs chase down their food(although wherew all the food comes from is still a mystery also one last thing Saruman's uruks can ride wargs as can goblins but ive never heard of orcs riding them. one can only assume the uruks knowledge of this craft came from their goblin predecessors
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04-08-2006, 01:41 PM | #13 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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hey I found something Im surprised no one brought up i found this on another site
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04-13-2006, 10:53 AM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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This topic also has been discussed before.
Take a good look at this .
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04-20-2006, 02:35 AM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Take a Biter this
There is at least one mention of the word Orc in the Hobbit, I have read back through the post although Orcrist is mentioned, it's translation into Goblin-cleaver has not I believe, if Tolkien says that, it's good enough for me. I think maybe that some are confused with Tolkiens descriptions on size. Stature can vary in all races, think of the pygmy and the zulu, both are of the same race, Orcs were said to have differed from tribe to tribe, There is also the air of Small being (wimpy I believe someone used) Less, and Tall being Great, the only analogy I can think of at this moment is that Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano were all smaller men in their weight division, but they blew away most of the taller men put in front of them, in the same way as Gimli carved his way through Big Tall Fearsome Uruk-hai. So to me Goblin means Orc, the small, the tall, the scrawny and the large ones who had gorged too many Man and Potatoe Pies. The Uruk-hai and The Half-orcs were bred from any one of the Orc race/tribes
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04-20-2006, 09:57 PM | #16 | |
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I just wanted to point out that their is a difference between orcs and goblins in the movies. Now I know that this might just be PJ's interpretation, but in FotR, Gandlf, during his conversation with Elrond after Frodo's rescue at the ford, says:
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04-20-2006, 10:10 PM | #17 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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05-04-2006, 08:34 AM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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They are the same thing. In The Hobbit they're all called goblins, but in TLOTR those in Moria are called goblins. I prefer TLOTR distinction.
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05-05-2006, 08:29 AM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In theory they are the same species this is true however they are different races
a good example is the difference among the race of man we've got Caucasian, Asian, Black, Hispanic Its the same with orcs and goblins theyre overall the same however there are noticable differences
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05-30-2006, 08:35 AM | #20 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As far as I know orcs and goblins are the same thing. Just in the Hobbit, they are referred to goblins. But everywhere else, they are called orcs. So yes, they are the same.
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05-30-2006, 11:06 AM | #21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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For a Wikipedia slant on this subject try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Azog Quote:
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05-31-2006, 10:53 AM | #22 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Cheers! I beleive you have helped conclude this interesting debate. A toast gentlemen *click of glasses*.
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05-31-2006, 12:36 PM | #23 |
Laconic Loreman
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Tuor, I'm ok with Wikipedia's article, except for the last paragraph. As I quoted there are two times when Grishnakh is referred to as a "goblin," and he was a messenger that served Sauron directly.
I will note that it is interesting how typically "Orcs" are capitalized and "goblins" are not. Tolkien was a linguist, I've always thought that "goblins" tend more to kind of like slang, therefor uncapitalized, where "Orc" is the proper term for them. Others suggest that this creates a slight difference between the two. But, as can be clearly shown Orcs and goblins are two words for the same thing. An orc can be called a goblin, and vice versa.
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01-29-2010, 09:58 AM | #24 | ||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Old thread I know, but my opinion is a bit different from the posts in it. First, responding to Wikipedia (quoted for interest above)...
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And here is where I'm not sure people will agree, but to my mind orc is not a translation, but the actual word used by Hobbits. No one in Middle-earth ever said the English word 'goblin' of course -- this is a translation. Tolkien loved words, and was finely attuned to sound and (his perception of) sound-sense. Tolkien liked the sound of orc for these creatures; it seemed to fit. And like 'Elves' for his Quendi, he knew that 'goblin' didn't really suit his goblins in any event. And why can't orc be actual Westron? It's not very far from actual Sindarin Orch for example (which ends in a sound like in German ach, not English church). In Tolkien's day the word orc was hardly generally known, and the meaning of the Old English word (as far as JRRT was concerned) was 'demon'. The inspiration could be Primary World, but just like certain other real world inspirations, like Moria for instance, Tolkien could characterize such words as Westron or Elvish. But how to explain his use of both orc and goblin? in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien reveals his mode as translator, and translation provided the answer. 'Samwise' is a translation of what other Hobbits really called Sam: Banazîr (Ban for short), for example of a name, and after The Lord of the Rings was published, Tolkien wrote a guide for translators of his book, and there he explained the relationship of orc to 'goblin': Quote:
And when another edition of The Hobbit arose in the 1960s, Tolkien took the opportunity to explain the words to his readership at large: Quote:
Take any example then, and it's just a matter of the way the translator has rendered it. Any instance of 'goblin' is really an instance of orc in the imagined original -- or any instance of orc could have been translated with 'goblin'. In the end the explanation is simple enough: the words are not only interchangeable, but one is used to translate the other (just not in every instance). No distinction of any kind is intended. _______________ A) There is a matter in which examples help disprove an interpretation of Tolkien's published explanation -- an interpretation (raised in the thread) which goes: since Hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, then 'goblin' refers, or possibly refers, to smaller kinds. However Tolkien's explanation works fine as: hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, goblin refers to all kinds. If we had a compound word in English for larger dogs, like 'gredog' (greatdog) for imaginary instance, would that mean that the word 'dog' only refers to smaller kinds? Examples show that 'goblin' is not reserved for smaller kinds, and the former interpretation will not hold up in my opinion. B) A futher issue involves 'unpublished' or draft texts: obviously there's nothing wrong with knowing the texts 'behind the scenes', but similar to the matter of the two towers (the question: which towers are the two towers), the simple text published by Tolkien himself can become part of a confusing muddle once draft text or letters are introduced, and be lost or obscured in the pile. Tolkien was not against changing his mind, but what he chose to reveal to his readership is distinct from alternate views he may have held at various times, which remained his private papers as far as he was concerned, by comparison. |
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