Characters paying attention

[Pervinca Took]

Didn't Frodo also remember the Elves' song scaring off a Black Rider before he said it the first time, and Sam remember it too when calling to Elbereth in Cirith Ungol. Granted, that's observing, not listening, but ....

Frodo cried out 'O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!' when he struck the Nazgul's feet at Weathertop.

[mhagain]

Yes, Elbereth almost definitely came from Gildor and company in both cases, although when the Hobbits meet the Elves Frodo is shown to have previously known the name and known that it signified they were Noldor. The knowledge that the name could be harmful to the Nazgul? I'm not sure, but I think Aragorn might be being sarcastic when he says that. In other words, no point attacking them with weapons, you may as well shout names at them for all the good it will do.

That interpretation would be more in-character for Gandalf than Aragorn, I'll admit, but it still seems valid nonetheless.

The name Luthien definitely csme from Aragorn's story.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by mhagain

The knowledge that the name could be harmful to the Nazgul? I'm not sure, but I think Aragorn might be being sarcastic when he says that. In other words, no point attacking them with weapons, you may as well shout names at them for all the good it will do.

That interpretation would be more in-character for Gandalf than Aragorn, I'll admit, but it still seems valid nonetheless.

The name Luthien definitely csme from Aragorn's story.

I don't know why Aragorn would be sarcastic at that point, at least that is what never occurred to me. As Hui quoted, he says "More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." That does not sound to me like sarcasm. You are anyway right that Aragorn is not even the type to be sarcastic, and certainly not in such a situation where they're having half-dead Frodo. He is being very serious.

I find it very interesting that Frodo adds the name of Lúthien at the Ford - I would imagine that it is his own "upgrade", a try if, perchance, since the name of Elbereth seemed to "work", adding another big name from Elven mythology might produce the same effect. He probably remembered it because he recently heard Strider's story about Beren and Lúthien. Maybe he even figured that since the name of Elbereth last time got rid of the Witch-King, but not quite (he still managed to hurt Frodo), perhaps now using two names before he is in the danger of being stabbed might chase the Nazgul off for good.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Didn't Frodo also remember the Elves' song scaring off a Black Rider before he said it the first time, and Sam remember it too when calling to Elbereth in Cirith Ungol. Granted, that's observing, not listening, but ....

I'd forgotten the song having the same effect; good catch. And I didn't even realise that Sam thought back to it! He was there when Aragorn mentioned the effectiveness of the name of Elbereth, so I think it counts.

It's interesting that Sam's invocation is close to the song in Rivendell - most of the words come directly from the hymn - but is adapted to be a direct appeal (that tiro is a dead giveaway, being the same word as Tirith). I don't think I've ever actually seen in translated before; it doesn't show up in the lists of poems; but in the Common tongue it would be something like this:

O! Elbereth Star-Kindler
From the heavens all-seeing
To thee I cry from 'neath death's shadow:
O! Watch and ward me, Angel of Everwhite!

It's a good one, especially from someone who doesn't speak Sindarin. ^_~

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It strikes me that the Nazgul at the Fords were somewhat nonplussed by the fact that Frodo resisted at all. They withdrew at Weathertop not because Aragorn fought them off (curse you, PJ!) but because Mission Accomplished. They had stuck the Ringbearer with a morgul-blade, and it was just a matter of time-- rather like an assassin using a lethal but slow-acting poison.

Within a matter of days Frodo was supposed to be a wraith and wholly under their command. After all, it certainly would have been the case even for "mighty warriors of Men!" The W-K here was operating on insufficient data: to wit, a Hobbit's remarkable toughness (although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it).

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it.

Bad inderdepartmental communication or Sauron being a control freak? Assuming it was Sauron alone who tortured Gollum and he didn't send his minions a memo about it.

[mhagain]

Gollum definitely met Sauron in person, he knew how many fingers he had.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Gollum definitely met Sauron in person, he knew how many fingers he had.

But the Nazgûl necessarily didn't, exactly. Maybe Sauron indeed didn't hand out the memo.

Anyway, as it is explained in, I believe, The Treason of Isengard, or maybe even in the Unfinished Tales, the Nazgûl didn't really know what to make of the Hobbits and were kinda afraid of Frodo, thinking that he was some super-powerful creature who had been able to avoid them very cunningly and when he (unlike 99% of the population of Middle-Earth) didn't only just run away screaming when facing the Witch-King, but even attacked him AND hit him, they freaked out and retreated from Weathertop. Sure, they considered it a "succesful assassination-poisoning attempt", but they were probably not very keen on repeating the experience.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I wasn't thinking so much of Gollum holding up under torture, as the fact that he had had the Ring for some 600 years and still wasn't a wraith.