Tears of Mirrormere Discussion Thread

[Folwren]

I've got a question and I'm not sure where to find the answer in the books. How old do dwarve's get? If they're considered on the young side until they're 100, when are they considered old?

-- Foley

[piosenniel]

There are links for various sources of Tolkien Dwarves' information in Post # 5 of this thread.

I believe there is a short entry about Dwarven Mortality in the Encyclopedia of Arda link in the afore mentioned post.

~*~ Pio

[Folwren]

Okay. I looked at a couple of the links (the ones I thought would have the info I needed) and didn't find it. I'll look again and then ask if I still don't find my answer. Thanks, Pio.

EDIT: I found it... Thanks again and sorry for bothering you all and cluttering the thread.

[Kitanna]

Name: Iari
Age: 10
Race: Dwarf
Gender: Female
Weapons: A slingshot, but she constantly misplaces her pebbles thus making the slingshot useless.
Appearance: She's about two feet tall, very stocky build. She wears long dark brown hair in one thick braid.
Personality/Strengths/Weaknesses: She's shy and can be a bit flighty at times, but she clings to her older brother. However, she's terrified of her grandfather because of his temper and often seeks to hide from him.
History: Iari is the younger sister of Kéni. They hailed from Erebor and are the children of Kéndrin and Ai who migrated from the Blue Mountains after the Battle of Five Armies. Ai died shortly after Iari's birth so the girl has no real memory of her. For two years Kéndrin, son of Kénan, raised his children alone delighting in their presence yet silently grieving for his dead wife. Kéndrin died under mysterious circumstances leaving his daughter to only have faint memories of her father. After Kéndrin's death her grandfather Kénan took Iari and Kéni in, eventually moving them with him to Khazad-Dum. Iari has never been particularly close with her grandfather. Because of her shyness she's always found Kénan's temper terrifying, though Kénan rarely directs his anger toward the young girl she still feels that somehow his anger is meant for her.

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(Secondary character with Folwren)
Name: Kéni
Age: 20
Race: Dwarf
Gender: Male
Weapons: Kéni inherited his father's ax after Kéndrin's death, though his grandfather does not feel he is old enough to use it. He also retains a slingshot and bag of pebbles, as well as keeping his sister's bag in his keeping.
Appearance: He has the same thick brown hair as Iari. He keeps it long enough to keep it in a short braid. He is continually growing and has the stocky build of his family.
Personality/Strengths/Weaknesses: He is a protective older brother, but can be overbearing to Iari and often acts much older than his age.
History: He has better memories of his parents than Iari, but his memories of Ai are not as clear as his memories of Kéndrin. In the first few years after Kéndrin's Kéni was a bit unruly and was quite the troublemaker. His behavior caused Kénan to lose his temper on several occasions. Kéni grew accustomed to Kénan and his temper, under his grandfather's wing the young dwarf began to learn discipline. Kéni is much closer to his grandfather than Iari and is often acting as a go between for his shy sister and grumpy grandfather. He often imagined Kénan's temper toward him in their first years together had a profound effect on Iari and that was why she feared their grandfather.

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Folwren and I have been working out a plan for our characters. We were thinking of having Kéni die at some point before the untimely end of the rest. We haven't figured out how yet, so we're waiting to see how the story progresses.
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LINKED TO PLAYER - CHARACTER LIST ~*~ Pio

[Folwren]

Alrighty. Here I am with my character bio. As Kitanna has stated, she and I have been doing some plotting behind the scenes. We are sharing a minor character, 20 year old Kéni and already have plans for him. (erm...) Anyway, here is my ol' chap. Hope you all like him.

Folwren’s Character

NAME: Kénan son of Kénor

AGE: 210

RACE: Dwarf

GENDER: Male

WEAPONS: A large, double bladed battle axe. He can use a bow and arrows if necessary, but the axe is his favorite weapon.

APPEARANCE: Kénan is an average sized dwarf, slightly stooped now with age, but scarcely the less strong because of it. His shoulders are broad and still muscular. His beard is a light gray, almost white, and his eyebrows are long and bristly. His brows are bent far down over his eyes which are often not seen except in moments of keen excitement, during which they flash fiercely, then their gleam is only caught at brief moments, for his brows are often drawn down further in such moments of excitement or anger. He wears a chain-mail shirt over a leather tunic in battle with a broad belt to carry his axe when not in use.

PERSONALITY: Kénan is a very opinionated old fellow with a swift and furious temper. He has a keen sense of duty and loyalty to his family and his people. He’s a staunch character and would never break his word nor betray anyone. He’ll fight do the death for anything he thinks worth it and for anyone who he is loyal to. If anyone disagrees with him, it is just about impossible to convince him of something other than what he already believes.

HISTORY: Kénan was born in during the exile of the dwarves, between the time that Dale was destroyed and they migrated to Ered Luin. His earliest memories were those of his father going off to fight in the Battle of Nanduhirion, when he was around 13 years old. His father survived the battle and moved him and his mother to the Blue Mountains with the rest of their kin. There, the family lived in relative quiet. Kénan married and he and his wife had one son, Kéndrin. When Thorin Oakenshield left and defeated the dragon Smaug at the Lonely Mountain and Dale was freed again, Kénan with his wife, and his son and his wife, along with many other Dwarven folk, migrated from the Blue Mountains to Erebor.

Eight years previous to the time of this story, Kéndrin died, leaving his two children orphans. Out of his deep sense of duty to his family, Kénan took the children. Three years later, when he decided to go with Balin to Moria, friends tried to persuade him to leave the children in Erebor, but he would not be dissuaded from his sense of duty, and so took them along. He was helped by some motherly dwarves on the journey in the care of the children, especially the young Iari.

Since then, they have lived in relative peace in Moria.
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LINKED TO PLAYER - CHARACTER LIST ~*~ Pio

[Boromir88]

Although it would be thrilling to have Boro's character just escaping the clutches of the Orcs.~Groin

I could do that.

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Name: Gror

Age: 95

Race: Dwarf

Gender: Male

Weapons: skilled with a long bow, carries a two-handed poleax from his father

Appearance: Gror is slightly below average height, but stout and broad-shouldered. His dark-brown hair (as well as his beard) hang down below his waist. Prefers wearing a leather cap rather than a steel helmet.

Personality: Like most dwarves Gror does not easily forget past grievances. He distrusts Elves, but most of all hates Orcs. He is not the fastest dwarf, but is still quick (according to dwarvish standards), and a high endurance that has not been matched by any dwarf in Erebor. However, some of Gror's ideas are unpopular amongst other dwarves. For example, Gror has taken a particular liking to Men (especially their women), and loves to talk amongst Men every chance he gets. In fact, to other dwarves, it appears that Gror would rather be akin to Men, than his own kind.

History: Gror was born in 2899 of the Third Age. He has no siblings and his father Bror served in King Dain's personal guard, up until his death two years ago; because of that, Gror's family was wealthy and well respected. After receiving word Bror had died, King Dain offered Gror the chance of serving as a messenger of the King. Gror, gladly accepted the position. Even though some would grumble the reason he got the opportunity was because of his father, no dwarf could argue Gror was not capable of performing his duties well. In fact, a lot of dwarves in Erebor would probably tell you Gror was the best dwarf for the job.

However, Gror's own personal ambitions were to follow in the steps of his father. His ultimate dream would be to serve in King Dain's personal guard, but he knew even though he was quite the marksman, he would have to learn to wield an axe better if he had any chance of that dream. So, he took out his father's axe and would practice with it everyday.

Until one day, King Dain approached Gror with some new orders: Go to Moria and speak with the Lord Balin. Then return to Erebor and report back to him on the colonization of Moria. It seemed to Gror like a pretty straight forward task, but he saw it as his first real chance at proving himself to the King. Before this opportunity, Gror had mostly been sent, as an emissary, to Dale. But now he would be making a journey all the way to Moria, and would be speaking with the Lord Balin himself.
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LINKED TO PLAYER - CHARACTER LIST ~*~ Pio

[Thinlómien]

Goodness I'm losing track of players and characters but I'm so glad we have so many so great players! Welcome everybody.

Originally Posted by Groin

Lilly, Lommy and I have made our first sin against Tolkien and went along and purposely ignored that very explicit detail simply because it would be rather uncomfortable to have women with beards.

Well, to elaborate, I asked Groin about the issue and he said we can take everything that is said in the histories of M-E of Dwarves with a pinch of salt since history is always written by Elves or Men. I considered that as a valid point. But if a majority of the players prefers women with beards, we can change it. My main objection to Dwarf males and females looking alike is not that I would have anything against bearded women (such exist in the real world too, anyway) but rather that I cannot quite take for granted a description that says that the males and the females of a certain race are appearance-wise identical. (Although... hmm... that's kind of very equal, isn't it? But bah, if women differ from men by having less freedom and power in the Dwarven society, let them differ by appearance too. I cannot say it's very fair that their life is more restricted and that they are as ugly. ) Okay, I'll stop rambling now. Whatever we decide is fine with me.

Originally Posted by Dim

Just one question: when will the game actually begin?

As soon as we're ready...

Originally Posted by Kitanna

If Loni or Nali are just secondary characters I can take up one of them until they are killed.

Yes. Just one thing concerning them. I might be mistaken but I think they would be in some way important that they should be named that way in the book. So not maybe by rank, but they could be related to King Dáin, or something.

Originally Posted by Groin

Lommy, still has to get in her secondary character that she wants.

Yes, I'm debating about that. I have a tempting idea for a Dwarf woman, but on the other hand, I would love to have one really old Dwarf around... Maybe I will just pick one of these ideas for my character and use the other for an NPC because I think there will be those as well... I will have to think a little more. But I promise to be ready as soon as everybody else is - I can write a bio for either of those characters in half an hour.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Yes, I'm debating about that. I have a tempting idea for a Dwarf woman, but on the other hand, I would love to have one really old Dwarf around... Maybe I will just pick one of these ideas for my character and use the other for an NPC because I think there will be those as well... I will have to think a little more. But I promise to be ready as soon as everybody else is - I can write a bio for either of those characters in half an hour.

I've created a pretty old dwarf, Lommy, so if you wanted to, you could have your Dwarf woman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Yes. Just one thing concerning them. I might be mistaken but I think they would be in some way important that they should be named that way in the book. So not maybe by rank, but they could be related to King Dáin, or something.

My goodness, Lommy, I hope you mean distant relatives. I won't go for any more uncanonicity!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I've got a question and I'm not sure where to find the answer in the books. How old do dwarve's get? If they're considered on the young side until they're 100, when are they considered old?

-- Foley

I have been under the impression for some time that 250 is an average dwarf lifespan. I imagine, then, that they would begin to be considered old when they reach 180 or 190? The stages of length (youth, middle-age, etc.) get drawn out, of course, since the life as a whole is much longer than a human's.

[piosenniel]

How Dwarves Age

So, I dug a little further into the question about Dwarves ages and found this reference in a book by two well respected Tolkien scholars:

The Lord of the Rings, A Reader’s Companion by W. Hammond and C. Scull; pages 709 – 710 (About “Appendix A” of LotR) – Under the entry: Dwalin 2772 – 3112:

By Hammond/Scull

Tom Delaney observes in a letter to Beyond Bree, July 1986, p.9, that Dwalin ‘lived to be a 340, a full 78 years longer than every other known dwarf’. In The Peoples of Middle-earth Christopher Tolkien quotes from his father’s ‘Notes on Chronology of Durin’s Line’, made while he was evolving the Dwarf family tree:

“Dwarves of different ‘breeds’ vary in their longevity. Durin’s race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300). [Christopher Tolkien comments: It will be found in the genealogical table that the life-span of all the ‘kings of Durin’s folk’ from Thrain I to Nain II varied only between 247 and 256 years, and no Dwarf in the table exceeded that, save Borin (261) and Dwalin, who lived to the vast age of 340 (the date of his death appears in all the later texts of the table, although the first to give dates seems – it is hard to make out the figures – to make him 251 years old at his death.] A dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.

Dwarves remained young – e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting – until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By 40 all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They then began to age and wrinkle and go quite white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed. Almost the only physical disorder they suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence. If in prosperous circumstances, many grew vary fat at or before 200, and could not do much (save eat) afterwards. Otherwise ‘old age’ lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great. [pp. 284-5; p. 288, n. 17]

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So for the average Dwarves who live to be 250:

Until the age of 30, they are considered too young for hard work or fighting.

From 40 to 240, they are fully mature in looks and physique, remain very hardy and capable of hard work and are battle-ready.

From 240 to 250 (the last ten years of their normal lifespan), they begin to "age" - they become wrinkled, and their hair (which they do not ever lose) turns white.

~*~ Pio

[Gwathagor]

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks pio.

[Boromir88]

First, thank you kindly for the invite, and I am signing up.

Second, quick question, would it be alright if my character was a messenger from Erebor? I know there was contact between the two places, and it stopped, but I'm not sure if there was an exact date given of when contact between Erebor and Moria stopped...just wondering.

[piosenniel]

Just an FYI (for future reference), though I know it’s been agreed that the woman Dwarves in this RPG are without beards:

The Lord of the Rings, A Reader’s Companion by W. Hammond and C. Scull; pages 710 – 711 (About “Appendix A” of LotR) – Under the entry: ...there are few dwarf-women . . . other peoples cannot tell them apart:

By Hammond/Scull

In The Peoples of Middle-earth Christopher Tolkien comments that what is said about dwarf-women in his father’s ‘Notes on Chronology of Durin’s Line’ is similar to that published in Appendix A ‘except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which “would of course be impossible”), and that they have beards’ (p. 285). Tolkien expanded on the importance of beards to dwarves in a revision to the Quenta Silmarillion in 1951:

The Naugrim [Dwarves] were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf – unless he were shaven in mockery, and then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would be more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature, or in gait or in voice, nor in anywise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at the direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. [The War of the Jewels, p. 205]

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(Bolding in the above quote by me....)

So, it looks as if Dwarves are born bearded, both male and female.....

~*~ Pio

[Lilly]

Do you want my female character and her 2 children to be bearded?

I don't really mind, since it is what Tolkien wrote for his Dwarves.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Second, quick question, would it be alright if my character was a messenger from Erebor? I know there was contact between the two places, and it stopped, but I'm not sure if there was an exact date given of when contact between Erebor and Moria stopped...just wondering.

Ho-ho, welcome, Boro! I really see the people are coming... great!

As far as I know, and I dare to say that, there is no exact datum on when the contact ceased. I find it quite possible that there was some messenger right then when "the incident" happened.

As for the beards, this only supports what I wondered about all the time - but I thought this is just some special rule for this time, that the Dwarven women have no beards.

[Groin Redbeard]

Welcome Gwathagor, Dim, Kath and Boromir88, we are so glad that ya'll could join! This is shaping out to be a merry band of players, ten already.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Second, quick question, would it be alright if my character was a messenger from Erebor? I know there was contact between the two places, and it stopped, but I'm not sure if there was an exact date given of when contact between Erebor and Moria stopped...just wondering.

This is a splendid idea. Over twenty years had elapsed before Gandalf and the Fellowship traveled through Khazad-dum, so we could take the point of view that somewhere within those twenty years the attempts at communication had ceased. You may feel free to have your character Boromir88.

The wheels are turning in my head, this could give the defenders the false hope that Dain might come to their rescue. Oh this is thrilling!

Lilly, Lommy and I have made our first sin against Tolkien and went along and purposely ignored that very explicit detail simply because it would be rather uncomfortable to have women with beards.

OK, here's the set up for how the game will begin. It is recorded that Balin was killed standing next to Mirrormere by an Orc archer. The game will start at Balin's death, a small group of his most trusty subjects will be standing a short distance away and will witness his death and the coming of an army of Orcs up the Silverlode.

Everyone elses charcters will be within Khazad-dum itself when the news of an attack has been spread. This will mean that Ori, Oin and Tror will definately be with Balin when he dies. I'm not sure if Frar will be with him, seeing that he's merely a great warrior (ya, only a great warrior), and if Boromir88's character has arrived a couple days before that day he might also be with the group. Although it would be thrilling to have Boro's character just escaping the clutches of the Orcs.

[piosenniel]

Pass on by.....

[Kitanna]

Since there's still room to play I'd would like to take up one of the roles that's left open, a Dwarf child if possible. I can get up a character bio later today or early tomorrow.

[Dimturiel]

Just one question: when will the game actually begin? (I'm being a little restless and excited about all this, you see). Oh, and Kath, Lommy, Dim is fine, Dimtury is also fine, whatever you decide to call me is fine with me.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Since there's still room to play I'd would like to take up one of the roles that's left open, a Dwarf child if possible. I can get up a character bio later today or early tomorrow.

Yehaw, welcome to the game Kittana! Sorry I forgot about you Folwren, glad you could make it! Wow, already we have the minimum number of players, this is turning out better than I thought!

If you want to take up a male character for a short time, Kitanna, Loni and Nali are open for the taking. Just note that they die off rather quickly in the game (In the Twenty-First Hall to be precise).

As to your question, Dim (I'm so glad we abreviated your name), I don't know when we are going to start. Pio has a post up in the game thread saying that she'll move it when all the players have posted in the Discussion Thread, so I'm assuming we'll get things started when everyone get their character bios in. Whenever it begins I hope it will be soon.

[piosenniel]

Nicely done old guy, Folwren!

[Thinlómien]

Just because I was curious I wanted to list all the characters in an order of their ages... It looks rather interesting:

Nali 227 (Groin)
Óin 220 (Legate)
Kénan 210 (Folwren)
Ori 194 (Lommy)
Frar 175 (Gwath)
Vigdis 147 (Lommy)
Trór 140 (Groin)
Svior 130 (Kath)
Onli 126 (Legate)
Hepti 125 (Kath)
Vitr 101 (Arry)
Dalin ~100 (Himaran)
Gror 95 (Boro)
Kórin 92 (Dury)
Kór 88 (Dury)
Lys and Nîsa 87 (Lilly and Groin)
Buri 85 (Gwath)
Bain 80 (Dim)
Adela 52 (Ilya)
Kéni 20 (Kit)
Iari 10 (Kit)
Tiv and Tíva 7 (Lilly&Arry)

I think the ages go rather nicely...

And looking at all these Dwarves, they amuse me. Somehow people always pick names that amuse me as a Finn. Don't worry, there's nothing too bad around this time - just that: tror = believe (Swedish), naali (close enough to Náli) = arctic fox (Finnish), and ori = stallion (Finnish again, and I know, it's me who plays him... and as a sidenote, "kili" means a little goat in Finnish). And Jari would be a Finnish man's name but it took me a very long time to even vaguely connect that with Iari.

Okay, to return to a bit more serious stuff...

I also thought a list of professions would be good (now please correct me if I've got something wrong about your characters) if not for anything else, than at least when thinking about possible connections:

Trór - Balin's second in command, warrior
Nîsa - sort of a healer, no special profession
Nali - loremaster, warrior
Ori - ironsmith, sort of loremaster, semi-warrior
Vigdis - mason, semi-warrior
Óin - scout (that includes warriorism/semi-warriorism)
Onli - adminstratory guy
Frar - warrior
Buri - smith
Kór and Kórin - no special professions?
Lys - jewellry smith (is that a word?)
Vitr - jack of all trades craftsman (prefers working on mithril)
Bain - craftsman (not specified)
Kénan - no special profession?
Gror - warrior, messenger
Dalin - weaponsmith (again, is that a word?), semi-warrior
Adela - cook
Svior - jack-of-all-trades, semi-warrior, learning mining
Hepti - smith

Kath - do you think Vigdis and Hepti being friends would sound good? Not probably very close friends as they both strike me as a bit workaholic but I just have the feeling they would probably get along well...

Groin - you said Nali is the friend of masons? That would mean he'd know Vigdis, most probably. Do we want them to be friends or do we want Vigdis have some silly old grudge against him? I think either of those ideas would be good... Also, as a loremaster and old, important dwarf, Nali would probably know Ori. I think we can assume they're friends?

Legate - I have no idea why I'm writing this as it's so obvious, but Ori and Óin are surely friends?

Arry - you mentioned stone masonry as being one of Vitr's professions. Would it be ok for you if he and Vigdis were friends?

Okay, that's all that seems obvious to me. I will try to think of a few more connections to my characters... also, anyone, if you'd like my characters to know yours, just ask - it'd be great.

And now, lastly, one more reminder for everybody: practically everyone is going to die in this RPG. Also, we have quite a lot of characters. So, especially those who have more than one character, don't shy away from killing off them even quite early. It's better if they don't all die in the last battle. I may personally say that I will save Ori to the last moments since that's what LotR says, but Vigdis will be killed of before that. Also, hmm, don't take these words of mine too seriously - don't ruin your RPG experience by pondering all the time how you could get your characters killed. *would add a smiley, but you know, there's a limit....*

[Folwren]

Don't you think that to a certain extent, all the dwarves would know each other? At least on speaking basis. They won't all be perfect strangers to each other, surely. It'd be something like a small town community. First, they had to travel together from Dale to Moria, and then they've been living in the same area together, and there really aren't all that many of them.

Just my thoughts on the matter...