The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-13-2021, 12:34 PM   #1
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
It certainly has an interesting take on the Catholic concept of purgatory - learning to work by the clock!
A modern motif. I can imagine that before time keeping the theme could be the same, but with sunrise and sunset being the standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
given what I knew Tolkien said about allegory in the foreword to LotR and his generally negative attitude towards it.
The only other description of purgatory I know of is Dante's. Obviously, we're dealing with a short story compared to Dante's masterwork, but the differences are striking. It seems more of an evocation of Niggle's own forced and practical reform rather than an after death millions of years long purification. Personally I wouldn't want to experience either of them!

And thanks, [b]Legate[b], for re-associating - for me - the idea of subcreation with Niggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
"There is a place called "heaven" where the good here unfinished is completed; and where the stories unwritten, and the hopes unfulfilled, are continued."
For one such as I whose subcreation may never see print (or webpage), this is a great consolation.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2021, 04:11 PM   #2
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet View Post
The only other description of purgatory I know of is Dante's. Obviously, we're dealing with a short story compared to Dante's masterwork, but the differences are striking. It seems more of an evocation of Niggle's own forced and practical reform rather than an after death millions of years long purification.
Speaking of purgatory, I'd like to mention Vane's dreams while Sleeping the Sleep in George Macdonald's Lilith, where he remembers every wrong he ever did to anybody in his life and works to make amends. I think it's interesting that his efforts include building, gardening and artistic creation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Macdonald, Lilith, Chapter XLIII
I was the eager slave of all whom I had thus or anyhow wronged. Countless services I devised to render them! For this one I would build such a house as had never grown from the ground! For that one I would train such horses as had never yet been seen in any world! For a third I would make such a garden as had never bloomed, haunted with still pools, and alive with running waters! I would write songs to make their hearts swell, and tales to make them glow! I would turn the forces of the world into such channels of invention as to make them laugh with the joy of wonder! Love possessed me! Love was my life! Love was to me, as to him that made me, all in all!
It's forty years since I read the book, but this passage has remained vivid in my memory, and although I'm no longer the Catholic, or even Christian, I was then, I still read this as a convincing vision of purgatory (indeed the only one that makes the concept palatable).


I may have more to say in the next couple of days (still refamiliarising myself with the story).
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2021, 04:33 PM   #3
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,309
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Because of its anomalous nature as the sole allegory in Tolkien's corpus (to say nothing of the scorn visited on allegories by him) Leaf by Niggle always stands out as somehow the easiest and the hardest of his works to talk about.

Easiest, because if Tolkien is going to write an allegory, by the beard of Aulë, he writes a pure allegory! Insofar as it IS an allegory and is very easy to map onto his own experience (up to the point where he has the Driver arrive, obviously), it feels like the most truthful thing Tolkien ever wrote. Given that Tolkien is a bit prone to forgetfulness when looking back at things years later as well as being as likely as any of us to tailor his reflections for the audience, he's acquired the reputation of being something of an unreliable narrator his own motivations. I think that's a bit untrue, but if you were to present a contradiction about his feelings in writing the The Lord of the Rings between a statement in the Letters and something in Leaf, I would instinctively side with Leaf as the truer of the two, ten times out of ten.

But, on the other hand, I find Leaf quite HARD to talk about, because... what is there to say other than what the text on the page itself says? This may be the only thing Tolkien ever wrote where I can't recall a single nugget of interest ever being referred from an earlier draft or background materials.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2021, 02:14 PM   #4
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I fully agree that the work-house is in a way similar or a representation of the traditional christian believe in prugatory. And I as well can agree that "Niggle's Parish" has a big similarity to Arda-heald or Arda-remade.

But is that equal to heaven? The quote from the Letter does suggest that in a way (and some passages from the Athrabeth as well), but would Niggle search beyond, once heaven in the christain sense is reached?

Thinking farther in that direction we might have stages of prugatory here: First the work-house which seems to be a kind of punishment and than the sanatory. In both cases the means of 'correction' are pushed upon Niggle from the outside. This goes so fare that at the end of that process we do not even hear Niggles own voice any longer. It is the judges that speak about Niggle that we hear at the end of that stage.
But than comes "Niggle's Parish": I think what is descript in that part is a kind of self-refelction. And in the end it leads Niggle to let go of his obsession and to leave his creation behind by his own choice. And we hear that the same fate does await Parish one day, but that he is not jet ready for it (and therefore can not understand Niggle going away).

In that sense the judges voice that at the dabate claimed that Niggle is not jet ready was right: As soon as he got the chance Niggle starts working on his obsession again. But probably only selfrefelction could bring him to the point of going on willingly and the third judges voice does allow him that way.

At first I thought that here I would now quote some descriptions of the Halls of Mandos and the stage of self refelction that the inhabitans would expirence there, as another description of prugatory by Tolkien. But searching for the quotes, I observed that they speak mainly about Elves and therfore would not fit fully here. So I will leave it at that and only mention it as stimulus for thought.

One additional thought in the end: If Leaf by Niggle is a biographical allegory, than the end of the story is a kind of confession: Yes, it would be very fullfilling to see the own sub-creation become 'true', but we have to free ourself from that wish or desire, because it is narcissitic to a certain point.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2021, 02:21 PM   #5
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Leaf I want to see mountains again, Gandalf - mountains!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil View Post
I think that's a bit untrue, but if you were to present a contradiction about his feelings in writing the The Lord of the Rings between a statement in the Letters and something in Leaf, I would instinctively side with Leaf as the truer of the two, ten times out of ten.
Agreed. It reads very much like a long, honest look in the mirror, and maybe also a bit of a plea to the Second Voice.

Like I said above, I first read Leaf as a young man near twenty, in the first rush of discovering Tolkien and wanting to read everything he'd ever written (or at least everything translated into German, which wasn't a lot back then - the Silmarillion had only come out a few years before, UT and HoME were still unheard of). I kind of got what it was about (like Form said, it's hard not to), but I didn't really feel it - I loved the tree, but I cared little for Parish and his potatoes. It reads differently now, at a time in my life when the journey to be undertaken is morphing from a distant possibility to a fact of life that has to be reckoned with sooner or later, and I find myself thinking more and more about what matters in life, what I want to get done in the time I've got left and how much of it I'm likely to accomplish. There's very much a feeling of Tua res agitur in the story, and the reminder that what writers and painters tend to experience as annoying interruptions constitute what other people call living their lives is well taken.

I concur with Findegil that Niggle's Parish, paradisiac though it seems, is not heaven but another, gentler stage of purgatory where both Niggle and Parish learn to appreciate each other fully as a necessary step in their development/improvement/purification before they are ready to move on towards the mountains (which both of them seem to have attained at the end).

Does anybody else see the passage of dialogue between Tompkins and Atkins on the penultimate pages as an intrusion that might as well have been left out? Maybe if either of them had been introduced earlier it wouldn't so much stick out like a sore thumb. The point that utilitaristic folk don't appreciate art has already been made when Niggle's painting was used to patch Parish's roof, there's no need to belabour it. I find Tompkins an overdone caricature, and ascribing an ulterior motive to him ('you had your eye on his house') feels too much like Tolkien may have taken the opportunity to grind a personal axe.
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2021, 03:12 PM   #6
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,300
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Although Tompkins and Atkins are not bad representations of Oxford faculty today, in terms of regard for Tolkien's legacy. While there are a handful who value his fiction, the Consensus Position is that Tolkien frittered away what should have been a brilliant career on his fairy nonsense, instead of publishing proper papers and books on English philology: the promise of his young adulthood squandered.

(NB: why those names? Derived from Tommy Atkins? Some drollery regarding the diminutive suffix?)
----------------------------------------

It's perhaps noteworthy that Tolkien wrote Leaf in 1943- in other words when The Lord of the Rings had been stalled for at least a year and he at the time didn't see it getting on. Both the LR and his Legendarium can vbe seen as the Tree, and so it's interesting how slighting the author's voice is in regard to the Tree's quality and importance. Not really very good, but unusual and thus not entirely devoid of interest. And then Niggle's fantasy, of someone coming in and giving him a public pension so he wouldn't have to worry about anything but painting- how the overworked wartime Professor must have longed for that!
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 01:08 AM   #7
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,499
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
I would like to add a few thoughts gleaned from Scull and Hammond's "Reader's Guide" on this story before the thread goes "treeish" (appropriately?):

Tolkien himself confirms the allegorical nature of the tale, though he writes (in a Letter to Jane Neave in 1962) that is more "mythological". His Tree is indeed the LotR.

Some commentators consider the religious nature of the allegory, others explore the connection to his views on sub-creation and eucatastrophe, to which this story gives literary form. Another (Ellison, quoted by S and H), examines it as
Quote:
...concerned with the processes involved in the translation of artistic inspiration into physical reality. Its subjects are skill, craftsmanship, technique; the essentials of bringing any large artwork to completion...
That thought is sure to resonate with those of us who are involved in creative work in any form!

Further posts are not only allowed, but welcome; however, I am ending the "official" discussion for now.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:10 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.