Characters paying attention

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think we got a bit sidetracked; if I am not mistaken, this whole debate about Gollum came up only because he came up as proof of Hobbit-toughness. And that came up only as a side-remark about something WK might have thought of, and that came up only in relation to yet another side-remark that the Nazgûl may have been surprised by Frodo's resistance.

And that all being said, the entire argument stands on the assumption that the Nazgûl knew that Gollum was the same type of creature as the Hobbits. I am sort of wondering whether it might not have been beneath their discernment capabilities.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And that all being said, the entire argument stands on the assumption that the Nazgûl knew that Gollum was the same type of creature as the Hobbits. I am sort of wondering whether it might not have been beneath their discernment capabilities.

Well, in The Hunt for the Ring Tolkien wrote that the Nazgul did know this, whether by their own observation or because Sauron told them, but at any rate they began their search for "Baggins" in the vales of Anduin because they assumed that a creature of Gollum's race would hail from the same area. This cost them precious time, eventually permitting Frodo's leaving Bag-end in the nick of time.

[Morsul the Dark]

To this day I’m secure in my knowledge I would’ve died in the barrow because how Frodo remembered a whole dang song Bombadil said once is beyond me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

To this day I’m secure in my knowledge I would’ve died in the barrow because how Frodo remembered a whole dang song Bombadil said once is beyond me.

Now THAT is one catch for the topic! Even though the whole episode before it is rather a case of the characters NOT paying attention: Bombadil explicitly told them to avoid the standing stones, and, well...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now THAT is one catch for the topic! Even though the whole episode before it is rather a case of the characters NOT paying attention: Bombadil explicitly told them to avoid the standing stones, and, well...

Thinking about the fact that Frodo seems to pay most attention when a song's involved, I wandered over to his lament for Gandalf, and, er:

From Wilderland to Western shore,
from northern waste to southern hill,
through dragon-lair and hidden door
and darkling woods he walked at will.

I'm pretty sure Gandalf never went anywhere near Erebor when Smaug was alive, and I'm positive he didn't go through the Back Door before it got destroyed. So was Frodo not paying attention to Uncle Bilbo when he rambled on about his adventures?

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm pretty sure Gandalf never went anywhere near Erebor when Smaug was alive, and I'm positive he didn't go through the Back Door before it got destroyed. So was Frodo not paying attention to Uncle Bilbo when he rambled on about his adventures?

I actually always read this as two separate pieces of information: through Dragon-lair (he was at least around) and then some other, completely unrelated hidden door, which, since it was mentioned alongside the dragon lair, ergo perhaps around the same time, I thought it might refer to Gandalf's infiltration of Dol Guldur. (Which would on the contrary prove that Frodo was perhaps paying too much attention.)

Anyway, if the hidden door is separate from the dragon lair, then it could of course refer to anything, the thing Frodo might have freshly in his mind being of course the famous "Mellon door", the Eregion gate to Moria.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I actually always read this as two separate pieces of information: through Dragon-lair (he was at least around) and then some other, completely unrelated hidden door, which, since it was mentioned alongside the dragon lair, ergo perhaps around the same time, I thought it might refer to Gandalf's infiltration of Dol Guldur. (Which would on the contrary prove that Frodo was perhaps paying too much attention.)

Anyway, if the hidden door is separate from the dragon lair, then it could of course refer to anything, the thing Frodo might have freshly in his mind being of course the famous "Mellon door", the Eregion gate to Moria.

It's certainly possible; but the lack of commas in "through dragon-lair and hidden door /
and darkling woods" suggests that they may well be a single list. 'Dragon-lair' has to be Erebor, and 'darkling woods' sounds like Mirkwood - which would fit very firmly with a Hobbit-theme, and not work at all for LotR (Gandalf wasn't with Frodo for any forests!).

Good point about the Moria-gate, though; given that we're told this is only scraps of the original dream-song, that's probably a good interpretation.

hS