Characters paying attention - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-26-2021, 09:55 AM

It strikes me that the Nazgul at the Fords were somewhat nonplussed by the fact that Frodo resisted at all. They withdrew at Weathertop not because Aragorn fought them off (curse you, PJ!) but because Mission Accomplished. They had stuck the Ringbearer with a morgul-blade, and it was just a matter of time-- rather like an assassin using a lethal but slow-acting poison.

Within a matter of days Frodo was supposed to be a wraith and wholly under their command. After all, it certainly would have been the case even for "mighty warriors of Men!" The W-K here was operating on insufficient data: to wit, a Hobbit's remarkable toughness (although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it).

Pervinca Took · 05-26-2021, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it.

Bad inderdepartmental communication or Sauron being a control freak? Assuming it was Sauron alone who tortured Gollum and he didn't send his minions a memo about it.

mhagain · 05-26-2021, 11:45 AM

Gollum definitely met Sauron in person, he knew how many fingers he had.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-26-2021, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhagain

Gollum definitely met Sauron in person, he knew how many fingers he had.

But the Nazgûl necessarily didn't, exactly. Maybe Sauron indeed didn't hand out the memo.

Anyway, as it is explained in, I believe, The Treason of Isengard, or maybe even in the Unfinished Tales, the Nazgûl didn't really know what to make of the Hobbits and were kinda afraid of Frodo, thinking that he was some super-powerful creature who had been able to avoid them very cunningly and when he (unlike 99% of the population of Middle-Earth) didn't only just run away screaming when facing the Witch-King, but even attacked him AND hit him, they freaked out and retreated from Weathertop. Sure, they considered it a "succesful assassination-poisoning attempt", but they were probably not very keen on repeating the experience.

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-26-2021, 06:37 PM

I wasn't thinking so much of Gollum holding up under torture, as the fact that he had had the Ring for some 600 years and still wasn't a wraith.

Pervinca Took · 05-27-2021, 02:52 AM

'And it seems that hobbits fade very reluctantly.'

Findegil · 05-27-2021, 06:04 AM

But Gollum was not a good example, even if the Nazgûl had have a full briefing about his 'encounter' with Sauron. He had come to Mordor following only some kind of general 'message' from Sauron to all hating the West to join under his 'banner'. At least that is what the books tell us. And even so Sauron had perceived that Gollum was not fully under his control, he had let him go, which must mean he did believe he would do only harm to Saurons enemies.

We do not know how long it took the Nazgûl to come under Saurons control and they held the Nine while Sauron had the One in his control. In addition, we do not know if Gollum would be able to tell his age even in rough estimate. So, on the one side the 600 years might be normal, or at least the time that they could estimate that Gollum had held the Ring didn't struck them as overlong.

Anyhow Gollum was never touched by a Morgul-blade. And we do not know if before Fordo any Hobbit had ever been felt the effect of such a blade - most probably not. But however, I think, we underestimate the influence of Aragorn's dealing with the wound. Hobbits might be of harder stuff than Men (specially in the mental or moral build as that would be the characteristic under attack by the magic of the blade), but without Aragorns care, I think Frodo would not have keep it up much longer than any 'normal' victim the Nazgûl had have experience with.

Respectfully
Findegil

05-26-2021, 09:55 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,300	It strikes me that the Nazgul at the Fords were somewhat nonplussed by the fact that Frodo resisted at all. They withdrew at Weathertop not because Aragorn fought them off (curse you, PJ!) but because Mission Accomplished. They had stuck the Ringbearer with a morgul-blade, and it was just a matter of time-- rather like an assassin using a lethal but slow-acting poison. Within a matter of days Frodo was supposed to be a wraith and wholly under their command. After all, it certainly would have been the case even for "mighty warriors of Men!" The W-K here was operating on insufficient data: to wit, a Hobbit's remarkable toughness (although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it). __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 05-26-2021 at 06:35 PM.

05-26-2021, 11:45 AM	#3
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	Gollum definitely met Sauron in person, he knew how many fingers he had. __________________ Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.

05-26-2021, 06:37 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,300	I wasn't thinking so much of Gollum holding up under torture, as the fact that he had had the Ring for some 600 years and still wasn't a wraith. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

05-27-2021, 02:52 AM	#6
Pervinca Took Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials Posts: 5,035	'And it seems that hobbits fade very reluctantly.' __________________ "Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always."

05-27-2021, 06:04 AM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	But Gollum was not a good example, even if the Nazgûl had have a full briefing about his 'encounter' with Sauron. He had come to Mordor following only some kind of general 'message' from Sauron to all hating the West to join under his 'banner'. At least that is what the books tell us. And even so Sauron had perceived that Gollum was not fully under his control, he had let him go, which must mean he did believe he would do only harm to Saurons enemies. We do not know how long it took the Nazgûl to come under Saurons control and they held the Nine while Sauron had the One in his control. In addition, we do not know if Gollum would be able to tell his age even in rough estimate. So, on the one side the 600 years might be normal, or at least the time that they could estimate that Gollum had held the Ring didn't struck them as overlong. Anyhow Gollum was never touched by a Morgul-blade. And we do not know if before Fordo any Hobbit had ever been felt the effect of such a blade - most probably not. But however, I think, we underestimate the influence of Aragorn's dealing with the wound. Hobbits might be of harder stuff than Men (specially in the mental or moral build as that would be the characteristic under attack by the magic of the blade), but without Aragorns care, I think Frodo would not have keep it up much longer than any 'normal' victim the Nazgûl had have experience with. Respectfully Findegil