Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
10-21-2005, 10:07 PM | #1 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
Posts: 115
|
Tolkien and the 'other' N-word ;)
A few years ago, near where I live, there was a rather amusing political flap. Someone, in a speech or interview, used the word "niggard". Apparently one of the people listening, not recognizing the word or knowing its meaning, assumed the speaker had used a different N-word (a racial epithet which I shall not repeat here ). Anyway, this made the local media and became a big flap before someone provided a definition of what the word meant (a miser).
Well, to my point, I had known what the word meant previous to this "incident", having learned it from Tolkien! Quote:
Does anyone have any words they learned from Tolkien? It seems actually quite a good and fun way to build up one's vocabulary. |
|
10-22-2005, 04:15 AM | #2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Me, being from Sweden, had a hard time reading LotR in english for the first time. I was maybe around 12 years or something. Luckily, my father had used the same books when studying english at the university many years ago, so the most uncommon words were underlined and translated. Though I wouldn't made it through if I hadn't read them in swedish first. I also tried Silm in english back then, but gave up. Now I try to read only in english.
I learned a lot of words from Tolkien. I was too lazy to look up some words too, so I guessed out of the context. This gave me an approximate translation but not always the correct. A lot of the words I learned adjectives because of the wonderful descriptions of places and people featured in LotR. One word that I remember is Alas. I thought it sounded real cool... I don't recommend LotR to first time english readers though. The language isn't that easy and some words used can hardly be find in my dictionary... And I didn't know the word niggard until today Wish one could be better at english...
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...
|
10-22-2005, 09:48 AM | #3 |
Everlasting Whiteness
|
Oh wow probably hundreds! I read the books when I was about 8 and apparently I've had a pretty large vocabulary ever since so that's probably where all the new words came from. The writing and descriptions of people and places are just so beautiful, and its always easier to learn words that way, when you like them and want to know them.
I can't think of any particular words I learnt from reading the books though, I think it was more words in terms of context, if that makes any sense.
__________________
“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
10-22-2005, 10:08 AM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lurking in the shadows.
Posts: 711
|
Well, I learned a lot of Dutch words from the translation when my father read it to me as a little girl.
I'm currently reading the English version of Lord of the Rings for the very first time, but have not yet stumbled upon words I didn't know or could not figure out from the context. Had I read it before I was a full time Ye Olde English student, this would have been rather different - as Gothmog says, tis not easy reading Tolkien if you're not a native speaker. When the movies first came out, I learned many words as well. I can remember wield (as in: 'we cannot wield it'), especially. I had no idea what it meant and for years have spelled it as wheeled, to the great amusement of all people more knowledgeable than me. |
10-22-2005, 10:26 AM | #5 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
Posts: 115
|
Those of you non-native speakers who have struggled through the books in English most definitely have my admiration! A lot of the vocabulary includes rather archaic words not commonly used or even understood today (as the 'niggard' example illustrates). I can imagine that it would be quite difficult for a non-native speaker to read, or for that matter, to do a good translation into another language.
|
10-22-2005, 10:34 AM | #6 |
Wight
|
Well I'm English and I read the books when I was about 12/13 and I still finished reading with a gargantuan list of new words...
Like 'bivouac'-I had never come across the word untill LotR. I'm quite sure I had no idea what distance was represented by a furlong before either. Hmmm... there's probably hundreds but I can't think of any more examples right now.
__________________
Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango. |
10-22-2005, 10:44 AM | #7 |
Dead Serious
|
I can't say that I really learned a lot of new words from Tolkien- although I'm sure I picked up quite a few from context.
What I can say, though, is that Tolkien made a number of words a lot more prevalent in my everyday speech- and writing. I'm not even really sure which ones they are. Certainly, a greater preponderance of more archaic words, and a fondness for older, British, spellings factored in a great deal. *Query to the Mods: Should this perchance be in N&N?
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
10-22-2005, 12:18 PM | #8 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
Posts: 115
|
Quote:
I chose The Books because I think that Tolkien's writing style, and particularly his rich vocabulary including many older words, is one of the things which makes reading him so enjoyable. To me, the writing style itself, because it is somewhat different than that commonly used today, gets me into the feeling of being in a different place and time, and the archaic words give his world a medieval feel. Perhaps that's the larger point, aside from the anecdote in the original post and the idea of Enriching Your Word Power with Tolkien, of the importance of Tolkien's writing style and in particular his vocabulary, on the readability and success of his books. |
|
10-22-2005, 12:24 PM | #9 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,499
|
I dug up an aged thread on this topic which you might enjoy reading: Tolkien vocabulary. It too is located in the Books forum, so we'll leave this one here for now as well.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
10-22-2005, 01:32 PM | #10 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
I'm sure I learned a good many new words from TH and LotR, as I read them (well, had them read to me) when I was rather young - about 5 or 6, I think. But that's long enough ago that I can't remember it particularly well.
I did learn a few words from HoMe. For instance: ghyll = a deep, rocky ravine shoon = old plural of "shoe" clomb = old past tense of "climb" champain = level, open country |
10-22-2005, 01:44 PM | #11 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,499
|
Most notable to me are the words Tolkien invented himself: eucatastrophe and dyscatastrophe.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
10-22-2005, 03:47 PM | #12 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
|
Quote:
__________________
“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
|
10-22-2005, 09:12 PM | #13 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,499
|
As far as I know, it was Tolkien's own word. I'm not a linguist though, so I checked it with several online sources. The Merriam-Webster dictionary tells me it's not in the dictionary, ergo not a known word. The Google references I got were all to Tolkien's usage. Wikipedia has this:
Quote:
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
|
10-23-2005, 06:28 AM | #14 | |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
|
Quote:
You'll learn zillions of new words that way (Or forget them right away after looking in the dictionary, of course )
__________________
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. |
|
10-23-2005, 07:39 AM | #15 | |
Wight
|
Quote:
I'm not sure that the words I learned where quite as interesting as the ones I learned from Tolkien though. I mean they were in my dictionary whereas quite a lot of the Tolkien ones where impossible(well really hard) to find.
__________________
Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango. |
|
10-23-2005, 09:21 AM | #16 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
|
Well, before Tolkien I didn't know what either a barrow or a downs was...
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling. |
10-23-2005, 10:34 AM | #17 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
|
Quote:
__________________
“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
|
10-23-2005, 02:06 PM | #18 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
The strange thing for me when reading Tolkien for the first time was how many of the odd words I was entirely familiar with. I had grandparents who spoke dialect, not mere accent, but a true dialect with its own vocabulary, and Tolkien makes extensive use of dialect in his work. He used the West Midlands dialect, but it's not that far removed from the dialect of where I grew up. I laughed when Tolkien used the word 'Attercop' because knew exactly what that meant, though I tended to pronounce it attercrop. I also knew exactly who a gaffer was and whereabouts yonder might be found.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
10-23-2005, 02:08 PM | #19 | ||
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
|
Quote:
IMHO, the rare and weird words SRD strews around in his books are les 'usable' in everyday life, I think. In my impression, Tolkien uses archaic synonyms of more 'regular' words than does SRD. Another impression I sometimes get when reading the Chronicles is, that SRD put in those words to just show he knows his OED, to show how erudite he is. Tolkiens rare and obsolete words fit better in the overall feel and style of the story. Quote:
__________________
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. Last edited by Earendilyon; 10-23-2005 at 02:18 PM. |
||
10-23-2005, 02:56 PM | #20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lurking in the shadows.
Posts: 711
|
It doesn't have much to do with words I am actually learning, but Elvish resembles Irish and Welsh so closely sometimes, I am becoming more and more frustrated I cannot read it.
I always thought Elvish mostly resembled Finnish and Tolkien did not appreciate Celtic languages, but I guess I was wrong. |
10-23-2005, 03:54 PM | #21 | |
Shadow of the Past
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minas Mor-go
Posts: 1,007
|
Quote:
Before I read Tolkien I didn't know what argent, or sable, or chalcedony meant, and some words I hadn't even heard of before. Bilbo's song in Many Meetings had some wonderful words, like habergeon and carcanet and flammifer, great vocabulary-filling words that sound old and noble. I always thought that Tolkien's poetry included some of his loveliest language. |
|
10-23-2005, 08:07 PM | #22 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
|
From Farmer Giles of Ham: blunderbuss
|
10-23-2005, 08:39 PM | #23 | |
Energetic Essence
|
No new words on this end, besides all the Elven words that is. I'm normally a very good English student. I started reading at a young age and learned a lot of words then. I continued to read throughout the years and learned new words in those books. Now a days, I don't really don't know a word, and if I don't know a word, I try and match the definition to the context in which it is used. Or I ask my parents.
Quote:
__________________
I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face! Fenris Wolf
|
|
10-24-2005, 05:52 AM | #24 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
"That crazy balrog Gothmog"? So i'm not only villanious these days, I'm crazy too
About the finnish-elven tounge. I've lived close to Finland all my life and never really liked the way the language sounds. Sindarin and Quenya seems so much...Beautiful! No offence people of my neighbour in east, but your language sounds funny, but not beautiful. One thing I've noticed: many of the pronouncation (sp?) that's supposed to be in elven tuonge, it comes natural to us swedes. Maybe to others too? Point is: it doesn't sound like in English which must have been hard for you anglo-speaking boys and girls in the beginning.
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...
|
10-24-2005, 08:16 AM | #25 | |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
Quote:
And back to the topic. The beautiful world 'alas' has always amused me since it means 'down' in Finnish...
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
Last edited by Thinlómien; 10-24-2005 at 08:17 AM. Reason: I wrote 'coinsidense'... :( |
|
10-24-2005, 10:28 AM | #26 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Thinlomien wrote:
Quote:
I must say that to me (whose native tongue is neither Finnish nor Quenya) the two languages do seem quite similar in phonology. To keep this post from being wholly off-topic - it occurs to me that I didn't know the word "shibboleth" before reading HoMe XII. |
|
10-24-2005, 10:38 AM | #27 | |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
|
Quote:
__________________
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. |
|
11-08-2005, 12:43 PM | #28 | |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,779
|
Quote:
Dwimmerlaik is my favorite Tolkien word. If I had a full edition of the OED to hand, I'd check to see if had ever been used before....
__________________
Out went the candle, and we were left darkling |
|
11-08-2005, 12:58 PM | #29 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Well, I did not learn any 'new' words in LoTR, but I got a good handle for how big a league and fathom was.
Part of Tolkien's archaic terminology is because he wrote these stories nearly 70 years ago, and because as a studier of languagest, I believe he suffered from lingual nostalgia. And Early Celtic is much, much harsher with gutturals and dentals, rather than the breathy and labial Elvish I read in the books.
__________________
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief." |
11-08-2005, 07:45 PM | #30 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In the land of Eren, the Garden of Ilrandir the Creator.
Posts: 11
|
my first major English reading task (I gave myself four years ago when I first arrived to Canada) was the Fellowship...I understood parts of it...more like just one fourth of it if I was lucky..I learned just about tons of words, I mean I never knew that "cry" can also mean speak out loud or shout, and I started wondering when I reached chapter three that why is everybody crying when they are not sad..
I learned a lot of new words thanks to LOTR, and after tons of re-reading I think I understood more every time. Still trying to increase my vocabulary.
__________________
What Ship will bear me back, across so wide a Sea? |
11-11-2005, 01:07 PM | #31 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Party Tree
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Second read was when I took my time and looked up pronunciations and words in a dictionary. P.S.-I remember that political incident, looked up the word at the time and got angry because the idiots who were mad never took the time to! So when I read it in RotK, already knew what it meant!
__________________
Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII |
|
|
|