The Scouring of the Shire - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-01-2007, 06:09 PM

Well, however much Tolkien may have benefited from the NHS, he was outraged by income tax, complaining that until his retirement it "took all my literary earnings."* Notwithstanding his Green opinions, Tolkien's politics have been aptly described as "Telegraph-reading Tory."

As an aside, everybody's political definitions vary; but I think 'state control of the means of production' is a decent working definition of Socialism, which thereby would certainly include Atlee's nationalisation of mining, steel, autos etc, and a health system where the State actually owns and operates the hospitals, rather than just paying the bills. Besides, Atlee used to close his letters "Workers of the world unite!"

*It seems that a large tax bill plus a lack of ready cash underlay his sale of the LR film rights!

davem · 09-02-2007, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Well, however much Tolkien may have benefited from the NHS, he was outraged by income tax, complaining that until his retirement it "took all my literary earnings."* Notwithstanding his Green opinions, Tolkien's politics have been aptly described as "Telegraph-reading Tory."

Well, he could protest too much - his friend George Sayer, in his talk at the 92 Centenary Conference, states that Tolkien 'was cock a hoop & talked with great enthusiasm of the fate of the Ace paperback editions, & that 'It was wonderful to have at long last plenty of money, more than he knew what to do with. He once began a meeting with me by saying: "I've been a poor man all my life, but now for the first time I've a lot of money. Would you like some?"

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-02-2007, 05:44 AM

Ah, but the Ace affair didn't occcur until after his retirement in 1959.

littlemanpoet · 09-02-2007, 07:35 AM

The "gathering and sharing" in the chapter was used by the corrupt weilders of power as an excuse that the hobbits couldn't very well disagree with on the face of it; which is why they didn't have a ready answer for it until it was too late. The Hobbits are all about community and "gathering and sharing" is a great community ideal. That the weilders of power cheated the ruled by selling to a foreign entity and making a huge profit at the expense of the local ruled, resulting in shabby living conditions, does not in itself undermine the ideal of "gathering and sharing".

So is Tolkien writing a critique of socialist ideals, or of greed amongst rulers, or that a simple market economy in an agrarian society is to be preferred over a socialist?

Or is it about how a community needs leaders with vast experience and wisdom beyond their immediate situation so they can see through the shallow lies of the corrupt weilders of power in order to lead their people to freedom?

He's writing a story that may (or may not) have such applications but those are not what the story is about. It's about four hobbits who grew into their roles within the community by means of adventures none of them chose for themselves, but went willingly, and came back the better for them.

Lalwendë · 09-02-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

As an aside, everybody's political definitions vary; but I think 'state control of the means of production' is a decent working definition of Socialism, which thereby would certainly include Atlee's nationalisation of mining, steel, autos etc, and a health system where the State actually owns and operates the hospitals, rather than just paying the bills. Besides, Atlee used to close his letters "Workers of the world unite!"

Many of these things had been taken under state control before Attlee! WWII saw to that necessity, so there was really nothing new in the post war situation to critique!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lmp

The "gathering and sharing" in the chapter was used by the corrupt weilders of power as an excuse that the hobbits couldn't very well disagree with on the face of it; which is why they didn't have a ready answer for it until it was too late. The Hobbits are all about community and "gathering and sharing" is a great community ideal. That the weilders of power cheated the ruled by selling to a foreign entity and making a huge profit at the expense of the local ruled, resulting in shabby living conditions, does not in itself undermine the ideal of "gathering and sharing".

Indeed. Nothing wrong in and of itself with 'sharing' amongst the community, but Tolkien does show how an ideal can easily be corrupted. I'm reminded of how multi-national companies will set up shop in some distant corner of the world, promising great riches but in reality enslaving good but poor people to a 'machine' for profit.

Of course, The Shire was already a wonderful, utopian place to begin with - we don't see starving Hobbits - and the real world is quite different.

Meriadoc1961 · 09-16-2007, 08:22 PM

I like this chapter, and I remember my brother (now deceased) who introduced me to Tolkien back in 1974 telling me that it was his favorite chapter in the series when I specifically asked him what was his favorite chapter? He did not go into much detail as to why, probably because he was 7 years older than I.

My favorite portion back then, and still to this day, is the first book in which the four hobbits begin their journey by themselves. My favorite cahpter has always been At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony, but my all time favorite scene is when Gandalf is confronting the Captain of the Nazgul with Pippin cowering in terror as the horns of Rohan blow in the distance.

Merry

Meriadoc1961 · 09-17-2007, 07:09 PM

I have also felt that Tolkien was influenced by Charles Dickens, especially with the Pickwick Papers. Has anyone else noticed any similarities between LotR and Pickwick Papers?

Merry

littlemanpoet · 09-18-2007, 03:28 AM

No, but I always felt that I ought to read The Pickwick Papers, and given this encouragement, I think I shall.

Meriadoc1961 · 09-18-2007, 07:46 AM

The Pickwick Papers, altough it is not a work of fantasy, influenced LotR somewhat in the servant/master relationship between Frodo and Samwise. I see the very same type of relationship between Pickwick and his servant, Samivel. Samivel reminds me in many ways of Samwise Gamgee.

By the way, be prepared to laugh out loud through parts of The Pickwick Papers.

littlemanpoet · 05-19-2016, 05:02 PM

I'm drawn to this thread again because I'm reading "The Scouring of the Shire" for the 6th time.

I'm struck by the modern feel of it compared to the rest of the book. It has a similar feel, to my mind, as "The Grapes of Wrath," "Animal Farm," and other works of the period. Something in the air, I suppose...

09-01-2007, 06:09 PM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,300	Well, however much Tolkien may have benefited from the NHS, he was outraged by income tax, complaining that until his retirement it "took all my literary earnings."* Notwithstanding his Green opinions, Tolkien's politics have been aptly described as "Telegraph-reading Tory." As an aside, everybody's political definitions vary; but I think 'state control of the means of production' is a decent working definition of Socialism, which thereby would certainly include Atlee's nationalisation of mining, steel, autos etc, and a health system where the State actually owns and operates the hospitals, rather than just paying the bills. Besides, Atlee used to close his letters "Workers of the world unite!" It seems that a large tax bill plus a lack of ready cash underlay his sale of the LR film rights! __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.*

09-02-2007, 05:44 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,300	Ah, but the Ace affair didn't occcur until after his retirement in 1959. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-16-2007, 08:22 PM	#6
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	I like this chapter, and I remember my brother (now deceased) who introduced me to Tolkien back in 1974 telling me that it was his favorite chapter in the series when I specifically asked him what was his favorite chapter? He did not go into much detail as to why, probably because he was 7 years older than I. My favorite portion back then, and still to this day, is the first book in which the four hobbits begin their journey by themselves. My favorite cahpter has always been At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony, but my all time favorite scene is when Gandalf is confronting the Captain of the Nazgul with Pippin cowering in terror as the horns of Rohan blow in the distance. Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

09-17-2007, 07:09 PM	#7
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	I have also felt that Tolkien was influenced by Charles Dickens, especially with the Pickwick Papers. Has anyone else noticed any similarities between LotR and Pickwick Papers? Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

09-18-2007, 07:46 AM	#9
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	The Pickwick Papers, altough it is not a work of fantasy, influenced LotR somewhat in the servant/master relationship between Frodo and Samwise. I see the very same type of relationship between Pickwick and his servant, Samivel. Samivel reminds me in many ways of Samwise Gamgee. By the way, be prepared to laugh out loud through parts of The Pickwick Papers. __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

09-02-2007, 07:35 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	The "gathering and sharing" in the chapter was used by the corrupt weilders of power as an excuse that the hobbits couldn't very well disagree with on the face of it; which is why they didn't have a ready answer for it until it was too late. The Hobbits are all about community and "gathering and sharing" is a great community ideal. That the weilders of power cheated the ruled by selling to a foreign entity and making a huge profit at the expense of the local ruled, resulting in shabby living conditions, does not in itself undermine the ideal of "gathering and sharing". So is Tolkien writing a critique of socialist ideals, or of greed amongst rulers, or that a simple market economy in an agrarian society is to be preferred over a socialist? Or is it about how a community needs leaders with vast experience and wisdom beyond their immediate situation so they can see through the shallow lies of the corrupt weilders of power in order to lead their people to freedom? He's writing a story that may (or may not) have such applications but those are not what the story is about. It's about four hobbits who grew into their roles within the community by means of adventures none of them chose for themselves, but went willingly, and came back the better for them.

09-18-2007, 03:28 AM	#8
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	No, but I always felt that I ought to read The Pickwick Papers, and given this encouragement, I think I shall.

05-19-2016, 05:02 PM	#10
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I'm drawn to this thread again because I'm reading "The Scouring of the Shire" for the 6th time. I'm struck by the modern feel of it compared to the rest of the book. It has a similar feel, to my mind, as "The Grapes of Wrath," "Animal Farm," and other works of the period. Something in the air, I suppose...