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02-06-2005, 11:33 PM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam
The title of this chapter actually suggests a shipwreck – Merriam-Webster Online defines “flotsam” as: “floating wreckage of a ship or its cargo” and “jetsam” as: “the part of a ship, its equipment, or its cargo that is cast overboard to lighten the load in time of distress and that sinks or is washed ashore”. At first glimpse, that would seem strange terminology for a chapter that takes place at a tower in the middle of land, but we find out why it’s appropriate later on.
Much of the chapter consists of Merry and Pippin’s narrative of the destruction of Isengard by the Ents; as we’ve read in other chapters such as “The White Rider” and “The Council of Elrond”, Tolkien uses this technique to catch up on happenings afterwards. It’s a tricky way to tell a story, but it does have the advantage of keeping up suspense in not finding out what happens elsewhere, as well as keeping the storyline flowing without breaking away from another strand of the tale. The Three Hunters stay with the two hobbits. We see another score-keeping by Gimli – his effort in hunting Merry and Pippin is finally rewarded by food and drink (‘The score is much reduced.’ ) and pipeweed plus pipe (‘It leaves me deep in your debt.’ ). Merry and Pippin alternate in the telling of their tale; it might be interesting to see if we can detect individual differences in their respective story-telling. Here are a few of the things that I noticed in re-reading the chapter; I will just mention them and hope for detailed discussion by many of you! Aragorn – Strider is back, was always there, belongs to both Gondor and the North Pippin and Merry’s knives are given back to them – crucial for later developments, especially Merry’s Huorns – the only positive appearance of impenetrable shadow Half-orcs – another favorite object of discussion Orthanc – made by wizardry older and stronger than Saruman’s Aragorn’s wise words, “Wormtongues may be found in other houses than King Théoden’s”, but his wrong conclusion about Saruman’s evil no longer being afoot – an advance clue to the Scouring of the Shire. Strangely, one sentence by Gandalf, “Wherever I have been, I am back.” reminds me of another similar quote: “No matter where you go, there you are.” (attributed to Buckaroo Banzai, as far as I know) Plenty of ingredients in the pot – let it simmer and discuss away!
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02-07-2005, 09:58 AM | #2 | |
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02-07-2005, 10:31 AM | #3 | |
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I think Ents were more resistant because they are rather...well...different. Saruman may not have known how to appeal to them. Memories of chopping and burning probably did not help matters.
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02-07-2005, 11:40 AM | #4 | |
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Haven't read the Chapter yet, but ...
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02-07-2005, 01:13 PM | #5 | ||||
Beloved Shadow
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02-07-2005, 02:12 PM | #6 |
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I don't have the book with me right now but in this chapter I get a sense that events could have turned out very differently for saruman. If he hadn't been so hungry for power he could have been a great ally. Also I feel pity for him as wel as anger.
Pity because he was such a great man and has fallen so far.He could have become even greater if he had not changed sides and betrayed the west. Anger because he destroyed much that was beautiful and good. Also he caused his neighbours much grief. The ents lost some of their herd and the people of Rohan lost their prince Theodred.(PLus many of the Rohirrim and soldiers) Of course many of these emotions reach their peak in the next chapter but in "Flotsam adn Jetsam" they are beginning to develop. In this chapter Ents are shown to be more then kind creatures. It is like a warning. Don't try to battle against somebody whose full strength you don't know. That was a major mistake of Saruman's. He obviously thought he could dismiss the ents and that he only had to worry about Rohan. On top of that he also underestimated their strength and thought htat it wasn;t important. Thus he was not prepared for the march of thre ents and this is what caused his downfall.
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02-07-2005, 02:22 PM | #7 | |
Laconic Loreman
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02-07-2005, 02:32 PM | #8 |
Beloved Shadow
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I understand what you are saying, Boro, but if Gimli was "left alone to talk with him" (with "talk" restricting him to speaking with his voice- i.e. no axe to change the subject) I doubt he'd last any longer than Treebeard.
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02-07-2005, 02:45 PM | #9 | ||||
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02-07-2005, 02:46 PM | #10 | ||
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The interesting thing about how Saruman eventually tricks Treebeard into releasing him is that this is preceeded by Treebeard relating many long tales to the captive Saruman; was Treebeard trying his own form of thought control here? It's certainly amusing to think of the 'hasty' Saruman being driven mad by long, rambling Entish tales. But the Ents do resist Saruman when they arrive at Isengard, in fact they chase him: Quote:
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02-07-2005, 03:33 PM | #11 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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02-07-2005, 04:11 PM | #12 |
Scent of Simbelmynë
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It seems that it takes Saruman some time to get to the ents. Even though they "resist" him at first, they're not really listening at all, they're too focused on their own purposes (namely destroying Isengard). It takes Saruman a while to get Treebeard to listen to him; one gets the sense that though Saruman has been gone from Isengard for a while by the time the remainder of the fellowship arrives back there in ROTK, he did stay there for a pretty good chunk of time. Perhaps Treebeard's taletelling is a way of taking up the time so that Saruman doesn't have opportunity to "bombard" him with his voice. Treebeard is pretty sharp, he may have known that Saruman's vocal prowess was a danger to him, and thus been able to avoid it longer. Once he starts listening and actually paying attention, it seems like he's as vulnerable as the next guy.
Sophia
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02-07-2005, 04:16 PM | #13 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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One Ent alone, as has been shown, could eventually be broken down by Saruman's words, but it did take some considerable time. I think maybe Saruman had to listen to Treebeard, to try to find a way into his head and to learn the right words to use to persuade him to release him. But what I am trying to get at is whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this, and he clearly does not have any problem in dealing with groups of people - as shown in the next chapter. So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?
The following line shows how Saruman was totally unprepared for what was coming - he was in fact dealing with his own army at this point and took no account of the other 'army' on his doorstep: Quote:
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So the Ents do resist; the very act of their pulling apart Isengard is resistance. Saruman was once their friend, and they would have been very aware of how dangerous he was, so to carry out this act was risky for the Ents. Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it? He resorts in the end to his 'conventional' defences in firing up his underground forges, so he does want to defend Isengard, but these defences were clearly not made to withstand an Ent attack (as they have little effect), which suggests that this was not something he expected, and therefore, something which he could not deal with in the way he would usually deal with an enemy. This is all very fortuitous for the Ents, as they have taken a risk in attacking Isengard, and it is unlucky for Saruman, who had not considered this possible threat.
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02-07-2005, 06:14 PM | #14 | ||
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A slightly different track....foreshadowing and setting the stage
I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. Sorry for bringing up future events, but sometimes themes are interconnected, and it's easier to discuss them this way.
Lalwende's earlier quote was a prime example of this: Quote:
As Theoden, Eomer, and Gandalf leave to make plans with Treebeard, Legolas remarks that “the great ones have gone to discuss high matters”. Interestingly, that group does not include the heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor. As if to reinforce the fact that Aragorn wears a “different hat” in this chapter, Pippin gleefully declares that “Strider the Ranger” has returned when he sees his friend smoking pipeweed. Why is this? Why does Aragorn not assert his kingly voice as he does, for example, in the Palantir chapter? The absence of Aragorn's "kingly voice" not only holds true for this chapter but also the next one. Although Aragorn will be physically included in the group that visits Saruman, he says not a single word in Saruman’s presence….indeed he says nothing in the entire chapter. Why is Aragorn restricted to “official silence” in both these chapters? First, I think he genuinely wanted to stay and talk privately to Merry and Pippin since he and Gimli had chased them over hill and dale, and he genuinely cares about their well being. And I’m certainly glad he did because the conversations with the hobbits were the most delightful parts of the chapter for me. But I think it’s more than that. This is not the time to be trotting out a future King of Gondor. They all stand within the eye of Sauron’s palantir, which is surely fixed on Isengard. Therefore, anything they can do to downplay Aragorn’s future role is probably wise. There is another reason as well. Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans. This forebearance will help Theoden and Eomer to trust him as King of Gondor. Finally, there are two instances of long-term foreshadowing. The most obvious is the discovery of pipeweed. The hobbits gleefully accept their treasure without thinking about what this could really mean. Aragorn smells a possible rat, and notes that “Wormtongue’s may be found in other houses than King Theoden’s”….a clear reference to Lotho. Second, isn’t it amazing that both Saruman and Sauron owe their defeat to the same basic deficiency: a rigidity in thinking and lack of imagination, a lack of respect for those who oppose them? Sauron can not imagine that anyone would have the audacity to come waltzing in to Mordor under his nose. Saruman strips Isengard of troops because he can’t believe anyone is left who poses a serious threat. Sauron knows a bit about Hobbits, but he does not really respect them as possible enemies. Saruman does exactly the same with the Ents. Pippin talks about Saruman’s shortsightedness. Ironically, many of Pippin's words could also be applied to Sauron in terms of Frodo and Sam: Quote:
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02-07-2005, 08:01 PM | #15 | |
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02-07-2005, 08:36 PM | #16 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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02-08-2005, 01:38 AM | #17 | ||
Scent of Simbelmynë
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Sorry to nab this out from under your nose, Kuruharan
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No matter the nature of the treasure, Tolkien always portrays it to be the better part of wisdom to be able to let go. Sophia
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02-08-2005, 10:09 AM | #18 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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cage me not
I look at the ent vs Saruman discussion another way. I propose that it was more of the entish character that was the dominant influence in letting Saruman go. Of all creatures of ME, ents were the least likely to cage any creature for any period of time. Something that Saruman might likely know and use against them granted, but the ents letting him go was IMO was inevitable.
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02-08-2005, 02:23 PM | #19 |
Bittersweet Symphony
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drigel -- Why do you think this? I would disagree, since the Ents have every reason to despise Saruman. He did, after all, fell and burn trees, some of whuch were "friends" to the Ents. I don't think that they would take pity on him without some influence.
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02-08-2005, 03:05 PM | #20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Bombadillian concepts
Hey,
An enemy no question- Saruman deserved punishment. But (to me), we are thinking as humans in this regard. In our world, there is punishment, justice, etc. But I hesitate to lay that on the ent universe. I think they were there to Stop something, not to Punish. In fact, I will go out on a limb (hehe), and say that, an ent would naturally (or by its nature) not harm any creature, other than an orc, or possibly as self defense. But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees. if that makes sense at all..... |
02-08-2005, 03:37 PM | #21 |
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I think what struck me most powerfully in reading this chapter over was Tolkien's barely suppressed exultation at the Ent's frenzy in destroying Isengard. The story almost seems to get away from him & he just indulges in what was clearly a dream he had long had of nature taking its revenge on the Machine. If it could only happen on the page then he would make sure it happened in a most spectacular & memorable way. The Ents are 'roused' & they become monstrous & 'dangerous'. This is not bumbling, rambling Treebeard, this is nature unleashed, taking its pent up anger & fury out on the one who had tried to destroy it. Its something we're beginning to witness all around us & to find ourselves on the recieving end of. Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?
Its as if Tolkien is saying this very thing about us & warning us of our inevitable fate. We've seen devastating floods sweep away our safe, controlled little societies too often of late. Nature is belittled, destroyed, subjected to our will for so long & then comes the backlash, & it's ugly & horrific. Yet... What we're witnessing is thebattle we as humans have always been involved in since the dawn of civilisation. Our species vs 'nature'. Talk of 'living in harmony' with nature is delusional. We don't, & can't - that's our tragedy. Our success as a species is based on dominating our environment & wild, uncontrolled nature is a threat to our survival - oh it looks beautiful & is awe-inspiring to visit, but the wilderness is not our home any longer. Civilisation, the Machine, is us, & to that extent we are all little Sarumans, & let us not forget that Saruman himself was merely a 'little' Sauron. We may exult over the victory of the Ents, but would we wish for their total victory over the Machine? We may side with Tolkien if we don't think too deeply about the implications, but its the Sarumans who have given us nice homes with central heating, cars, TV & computers. Even the copies of Lord of the Rings we've been reading have required trees to be cut down in their millions. We mustn't be hypocrites. The West made use of the Ents to achieve their goal of defeating Sauron, but nobody was, or more importantly is, 'entirely on their side'. We have seen the 'Last March of the Ents' & it was a temporary victory, Their part in the Great War of the Ring will be remembered - long after they are gone. Why does Treebeard eventually release Saruman from Orthanc to do more 'mischief'? Who knows. But that's what happened. 'Nature' released us, Homo sapiens, from our long 'captivity' in the trees, & we stood erect & set forth to build civilisations, & create our art, our music, our science. Ever since its been trying to swallow us up again into its long dream, & we've been fighting to stay 'awake'. In this chapter 'civilisation' - its worst aspects admittedly - has been swept away, but the righteous fury of the Ents can only replace it with the 'dreams of trees'. Its a sobering chapter, this one. Food for thought...... |
02-08-2005, 03:40 PM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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hoom, hrum, hoom - Ill take a bowl of that!
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02-08-2005, 07:27 PM | #23 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
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Interesting stuff there, davem.
The whole situation is like seeing an old chain-link fence or car sitting there all rusty and overgrown with weeds. There are twisted vines engulfing the metal, and maybe a few flowers growing there, and the grass has grown up so high that you can't see most of the tires anymore. (This is a much less extreme and less violent comparision, though!) Nature has a slow, steady way of going about things, but as long as it is still present, it will fight back. We see dandelions growing through cracks in the sidewalk, a bit of chaos thrown in to mess with the order. Sometimes tree roots grow under that same sidewalk and displace it. Quote:
Fangorn is not a hospitable place for most, and neither is much of nature for the average person. I, for one, am quite sure that I could not get along very well on my own in the woods. The Ents just want to be left alone, it seems, something that sounds easy enough in theory. But, to reflect it to our own society, as davem said, we've oppressed nature for most of our history. Quote:
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02-08-2005, 07:47 PM | #24 | ||
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02-08-2005, 07:58 PM | #25 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Just popping in ...
... to correct a possible misapprehension.
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While I am not totally sold on the prophecies of doom in connction with global warming (as the evidence goes both ways), it is certainly food for thought. And davem's comments about this Chapter and what it has to say on the issue also provides food for thought.
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02-08-2005, 08:13 PM | #26 | |
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02-09-2005, 03:53 AM | #27 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Davem -
What a great post! When I read this chapter (and a number of others as well) similar thoughts have crossed my mind. Quote:
Believe me when I tell you that it used to be even worse than it is today at least in terms of awareness of the kind of danger a Saruman poses. Back in the 50s except for lone voices crying out (and Tolkien was one of a scant few in literary/academic circles) most people were simply unaware of the extent of ecological damage. If there was one aspect of the books that attracted 'sixties college students, it was the sense that Middle-earth was a living, breathing world and the author cared about what happened to it. That seemed so different than what was going on at the time. In many respects things have improved. There are laws on the books for one thing. Not perfect ones but better than nothing. There are groups trying to protect what's still there, and some species have actually fared better than in the past. Yet, at the same time, the areas of green continue to shrink, acres of rain forests are being burnt to the ground every day, and the list of endangered species grows. Many places of sanctuary I knew when I was a kid have been taken over by cement, something I personally lament. I know these questions are complex: it's not always so open and shut. How can someone from an industrialized country that's been blessed with comparative wealth look 'poorer' countries in the eye and demand that they wait and find another way that is 'less exploitive'? Sometimes it seems easier just to follow a Saruman. Sadly, then, I do think Saruman is alive and kicking. When I read LotR it's not Sauron who sends chills up my back. It's Saruman. I have trouble imagining a Sauron taking over things completely in our modern world. I have absolutely no problem imagining a Saruman or two or even more....in government, business, education, and a dozen other situations. Tolkien was not the most optomistic man in the world, and I can empathize with that. Sometimes it seems that nothing will really change unless we transform our values. And what is the likelihood of that happening? But, if it doesn't happen, what a price there is to pay in the long run. We've already lost so much of the wonder, and every time we hack down a tree, I think we lose another piece. And that lesson is part of the tale Tolkien was weaving in this chapter.
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02-09-2005, 05:33 AM | #28 | ||||
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Is the ecological message of LotR still as strongly heard today as it was 30 years ago? Sometimes it seems that this message is not as important to readers as it once was, and I feel disappointed in that because it is more important then ever. So I feel encouraged when I read comments like this from Encaitare: Quote:
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02-09-2005, 06:38 AM | #29 | |
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mostly I lurk of late, but you've managed to lure me out this time...
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Can not recall exact quote, but the whole Saruman/Sauron comparison reminded me of C.S.Lewis and Screwtape's advice. It ran along lines similar to the following: 'there is no need for great and spectacular sin to get sinner to our father below (i.e. Hell) - repeated practice of common everyday sins is sufficient'. And self-righteous confidence of "Surely, that's me who's doing things right" is the key to open the process up. (U.S. intelligence investing into Bin-Laden, German bourgeoisie backing up Hitler - paragons of 'means/ends' confusion, philosophy of 'we'll always be able to get rid of this unreliable partner later') General flaw of human outlook. Let me set up my neighbour just once today. Not that good it will do him, but it will be profitable for me, and that's what counts, eh? Let me just have this new car today, and to heck with what happens to oil resources tomorrow. It extends to our own hröar even - part of nature, aren't they? Let me smoke and enjoy (my sad case here) this cigarette now, and to heck with what x-ray may show tomorrow as the black hole in the place I'm supposed to have lungs. I definetely agree - we have mini-Saruman deep down inside. Or maybe not that deep, just one peel away. MiniSaruman, fruit of pride and arrogance not yet overwhelming to ripen Saurons, but enough to have [wo]man concentrating on his/herself and own wishes (not needs - what I want and what I need are often quite distinct things) On a lighter side, it is not up my back and not exactly chills that take the route of sightseeing, but rather down the central channel of my spine chord (which, with reference to 'Dumbing Down' thread, luckily has no axe embedded into it yet (do office chairs count?)), and it's shivers rather...
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02-09-2005, 08:03 AM | #30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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wifey
HI
Sadly yes, I can attest that office chairs DO count Though we may be taking this chapter's themes to a philosophical level unintended by the author, I second everyone's Saruman's point. We have had a Saruman with us since we harnessed fire, Im afraid. But it does lead me to ponder.... The struggle you guys have eloquently expressed causes me to look at the ent/entwife struggle. Isnt their rift similar to the struggle described afore here? One side embracing the Sheparding of the land, the other embracing Nature, unmolested. The inevitability that those camps would part ways, never to join as one again... how sad.... Last edited by drigel; 02-09-2005 at 08:38 AM. |
02-09-2005, 08:45 AM | #31 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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I am not sure if the contrast is that stark, although some may feel differently. At least I do not sense such a sharp dichotomy in my own mind and that of the author. Tolkien never seemed to have trouble accepting the fact that a landscape touched by man could have its own beauty. The prime example is the Shire. The problem lies not in the crafting of gardens but in a disregard for the needs of the earth. I do think it's possible to live and have respect for the land yet still use it productively. The balance, of course, is subtle. Yet we are subcreators and part of that instinct could be reflected in someone like Sam who had a gift to protect and tend the earth. Perhaps the problem with Ent and Entwife did not lay in the different pursuits they had chosen but rather in the lack of communication between them.
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02-09-2005, 09:19 AM | #32 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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To be honest, I was careening off the path of this thread unintentionally. I agree that there is a balance - there has always been a need for balance for our survival, otherwise we would all be desert dwellers. My line of thinking (and its you guys fault - I am provoked mercilessly into thinking when I am here ) was this:
I think the rub lies in the use of the land, as expressed by the entwives. As opposed to the ents ummm existing in nature, being a part of it, and not above it, as it were. Sorry for the stagger, now back on to this chapter. |
02-09-2005, 10:23 AM | #33 | ||
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Child of the 7th Age wrote:
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Does this make the Entwives like Saruman? Yes, I would say. Obviously, not much like Saruman - but I think that again we can apply the Artificial vs. Natural distinction that pervades so much of Tolkien's work. The Ents are just about supremely Natural; Saruman of course embodies Artifice. The Entwives are somewhere in between - or, one could say, they are members of a fairly select group - Tolkien's Good Artificers. Aule is the prime example. He wants to create, to make things with skill, but he wants to do so for essentially good reasons. The Entwives have lesser ambitions, but again their goal in cultivating and gardening is not evil. Having rambled a bit about that, I feel obligated to say something about the chapter at hand. I think that one of the few changes made by Peter Jackson that was actually for the better was the direct depiction of the attack on Isengard. Now I do not think that it was a mistake for Tolkien to tell the story as he did - through Merry and Pippin as a kind of flashback. Rather, I think that this is a prime example of a real difference between the literary and the cinematic. The fundamental principle at work here is that a movie is capable of making a direct visual appeal to the audience, and that is simply something that a book cannot do. In this one matter at least, motion pictures have an innate advantage over books. It would be a mistake for a LotR movie not to depict the Ents attacking Isengard, because that scene is one with the potential for such a powerful visual impact. In fact, to refer to such a momentous event without actually showing it would probably feel like a cheat to the audience. But it would be a mistake to take this kind of thinking into the literary realm. For in a book, there is no opportunity for direct visual appeal to be missed. What a book substitutes for a movie's visual impact is the beauty of its prose. A written account of the ruin of Isengard achieves an impact on the reader not through the literal events that it depicts but through the words used to convey those events - as can be shown by the fact that it is quite possible for two writers to write about the same event and achieve very different results. What this means is that there is nothing to be gained by telling of the attack on Isengard directly, rather than through Merry and Pippin - for either way, we are reading an account, not seeing the events. But what is there to be gained from this technique? One thing that has already been mentioned is suspense. We know that the Ents are going to attack Isengard but for several chapters we are left to wonder about the outcome. But I think there is another reason that this way of telling the story is desirable: it allows the story to come out of Merry's and Pippin's mouths. For, after all, how would our narrator describe the attack? Can a straightforward description, even through the eyes of the Hobbits, really convey the fury of the assault? Perhaps I'm underestimating Tolkien's narrative ability, but I simply don't see how an account of the battle in the narrator's objective voice could do it justice. Merry and Pippin, on the other hand, can report the events with splendid subjectivity and with all the wonder and amazement a pair of Hobbits can conjure up. |
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02-09-2005, 11:31 AM | #34 | |
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Quite the discussion going, eh?
Something back earlier in the thread caught my eye, though, so I'm going to take a detour back to it: Quote:
A shepherd. Or maybe a.... tree-herder. I'll admit that the comparisom isn't exact, but think about it. The Ents would have been well-qualified to take care of Saruman, better qualified than most Elves, Dwarves, or Men I fear. That Saruman eventually talked Treebeard into letting him go isn't so much a proof of Treebeard's weakness as of Saruman's strength. Treebeard, like everyone in middle-earth, is an imperfect creature. He has his Achilles Heel. It's only a matter of time for Saruman to come up with and use the right arguments against him.
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02-09-2005, 04:16 PM | #35 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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On the theme of whether Ents would make good guards:
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02-09-2005, 05:23 PM | #36 | ||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Aiwendil
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For example, it's not unusual for the male and female figures in a mythic/faerie linking to have completely contrasting spheres and interests....even to have set times when they separate from each other and later join again. (Persephone and Hades are a striking example of this, both in terms of differing roles and temperments and the issue of separation.) Even during the separation of such couples, there is an underlying rhythm that keeps them in step so they never lose each other. In LotR, Tom Bombadil and his wife come to mind. Tom would roam off on his own in the forest but always found his way back to the house that Goldberry kept to enjoy the hearth and the warmth of their relationship. Just like Goldberry, the Entwives insisted on settling down and constructing gardens while the Ents kept rambling. In Treebeard's words, Quote:
It does make one wonder. Given the fact that the Ents had not made a sustained effort to nurture a relation over time and were so easily wooed away from their wives, would they actually have been the best guards of Saruman? Was it simply the Voice of the Wizard that deceived them, or did they have a natural tendency to shut out anything that distracted them from their preferred life path? Taking care of a prisoner would interfere with their desire to wander through the woods so that they might be more likely to shirk their obligations. And unlike the rapid attack on Isengard, being responsible for a prisoner takes sustained commitment over time, something they had trouble with. (These same deficiencies in behavior were just as true of the Entwives, but they are out of the picture now.)
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 02-09-2005 at 05:31 PM. |
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02-10-2005, 10:07 AM | #37 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Playing in Peoria
Posts: 35
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The Nature of Entwives
To quote an even small portion of Treebeard's quote:
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My reason for wondering is that men honored the entwives greatly, but ents were only a legend. If they look fairly similar, I would have a very easy time believing that the masculine version of what's standing right in front of me could be found in the forests to the south, unless the entwives themselves had come to believe that the ents had passed away.
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02-12-2005, 12:24 AM | #38 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
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Through Ents Tolkien found nature's voice. They are the true protectors of everything that grows. Because this book is fantasy it is able to show things from a natures perspective in a way that could not be managed in fiction (as in non-fiction and historical).
I think one of the main purposes of the ents was to show that not only does evil damage people and their families but that it also damages nature which causes further consequences down the road. For me the ents make nature more personal. Already I am very conscious of the environment, and always have been. However tha character Treebeard just adds to my belief that preserving nature is extremely important. Treebeard says himself that the damage caused by Saruman will take many years to heal. Now just think of all the damage we have caused and how long that will take!! Of course the battle between Saruman and the ents also shows that nature will prevail. I'm certain that Tolkien believed in that. However, seeing our world as it is now it will have to take a lot for nature to reconquer (Not counting big storms). Someone mentioned earlier that the entwives could be compared to Saruman. I would have to dissagree. It is true that the Entwives manipulated growing things. However they still grew things and cultivated many plants and trees to grow. Saruman didn't encourage anything to grow at all. In fact he destroyed every living plant. He caused much destruction, whereas the entwives created many living things.
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02-12-2005, 11:16 AM | #39 | ||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Lathriel -
I agree with you. Whatever their failings, the Entwives were not Saruman. As I've argued before, the estrangement between the Ents and Entwives was something that could be laid on both the genders, and was not solely the fault of the Entwives. Tolkien's whole tone in describing the rift is one of sorrow rather than condemnation. Moreover, Tolkien's loving depiction of the Shire shows that he was not insisting all land be kept in a "virgin" state but accepted the fact that there would be places like the Shire where loving hands would tend the earth. I did notice one other thing in the chapter which brought a smile to my face. In one part of Pippin's narrative, he uses the term "misty, moisty morning" to describe Isengard. I knew I'd heard those words somewhere before and then I remembered the nursery rhyme: Quote:
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03-02-2005, 10:11 PM | #40 | |||||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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catching up: notes taken prior to reading thread
Strider in a moment of vulnerability:
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Strider returns the hobbits' knives: Quote:
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Once upon a time, Saruman's hands were "marvellously skilled." I find this a very interesting value of Tolkien's, and it reminds me of Gandalf's praise of Feanor, later in the palantir chapter. Once again, Gandalf is "merry"-- almost. Quote:
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