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06-06-2021, 06:14 AM | #1 | ||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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06-09-2021, 07:17 AM | #2 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,300
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Niggle is I think unique in Tolkien's career in that it is the only work I can think of which is explicitly religious.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
06-09-2021, 03:37 PM | #3 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,499
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It certainly has an interesting take on the Catholic concept of purgatory - learning to work by the clock!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
06-10-2021, 03:48 AM | #4 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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What always seemed obvious to me about Leaf by Niggle/Music of the Ainur was the parallel reflecting what I think is truly "Tolkien's eschatology", if we can find any: the restoration of everything AND "upgrading" it using the creativity and skill of humans (and Elves). Quote:
The whole concept is in broad terms very close to the ages-old theological idea of apokatastasis panton, or tikkun olam in Judaism and especially Hassidic mysticism. Hassidic mysticism and kabbalah contain a lot of these elements of "sub-creators" (for instance, the whole concept of Golem, if you're aware of the legend, is an example of sub-creation par excellence). There is an idea of worlds being created or of things literally coming into life by stories being told about them. And of course all this sub-creation is a part of the eschatology, too; so the idea is that by necessity one day, all these elements of sub-creation shall somehow be vowen into the restored World-To-Be. And if that isn't the Second Music/"Niggle's Parish", I don't know what is.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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06-10-2021, 03:03 PM | #5 | |
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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This sentence from Tolkien's letters ties in nicely with Niggle's Parish:
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! |
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06-13-2021, 12:34 PM | #6 | |||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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And thanks, [b]Legate[b], for re-associating - for me - the idea of subcreation with Niggle. Quote:
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06-13-2021, 04:11 PM | #7 | ||
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
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I may have more to say in the next couple of days (still refamiliarising myself with the story).
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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06-13-2021, 04:33 PM | #8 |
Dead Serious
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Because of its anomalous nature as the sole allegory in Tolkien's corpus (to say nothing of the scorn visited on allegories by him) Leaf by Niggle always stands out as somehow the easiest and the hardest of his works to talk about.
Easiest, because if Tolkien is going to write an allegory, by the beard of Aulë, he writes a pure allegory! Insofar as it IS an allegory and is very easy to map onto his own experience (up to the point where he has the Driver arrive, obviously), it feels like the most truthful thing Tolkien ever wrote. Given that Tolkien is a bit prone to forgetfulness when looking back at things years later as well as being as likely as any of us to tailor his reflections for the audience, he's acquired the reputation of being something of an unreliable narrator his own motivations. I think that's a bit untrue, but if you were to present a contradiction about his feelings in writing the The Lord of the Rings between a statement in the Letters and something in Leaf, I would instinctively side with Leaf as the truer of the two, ten times out of ten. But, on the other hand, I find Leaf quite HARD to talk about, because... what is there to say other than what the text on the page itself says? This may be the only thing Tolkien ever wrote where I can't recall a single nugget of interest ever being referred from an earlier draft or background materials.
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06-15-2021, 02:14 PM | #9 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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I fully agree that the work-house is in a way similar or a representation of the traditional christian believe in prugatory. And I as well can agree that "Niggle's Parish" has a big similarity to Arda-heald or Arda-remade.
But is that equal to heaven? The quote from the Letter does suggest that in a way (and some passages from the Athrabeth as well), but would Niggle search beyond, once heaven in the christain sense is reached? Thinking farther in that direction we might have stages of prugatory here: First the work-house which seems to be a kind of punishment and than the sanatory. In both cases the means of 'correction' are pushed upon Niggle from the outside. This goes so fare that at the end of that process we do not even hear Niggles own voice any longer. It is the judges that speak about Niggle that we hear at the end of that stage. But than comes "Niggle's Parish": I think what is descript in that part is a kind of self-refelction. And in the end it leads Niggle to let go of his obsession and to leave his creation behind by his own choice. And we hear that the same fate does await Parish one day, but that he is not jet ready for it (and therefore can not understand Niggle going away). In that sense the judges voice that at the dabate claimed that Niggle is not jet ready was right: As soon as he got the chance Niggle starts working on his obsession again. But probably only selfrefelction could bring him to the point of going on willingly and the third judges voice does allow him that way. At first I thought that here I would now quote some descriptions of the Halls of Mandos and the stage of self refelction that the inhabitans would expirence there, as another description of prugatory by Tolkien. But searching for the quotes, I observed that they speak mainly about Elves and therfore would not fit fully here. So I will leave it at that and only mention it as stimulus for thought. One additional thought in the end: If Leaf by Niggle is a biographical allegory, than the end of the story is a kind of confession: Yes, it would be very fullfilling to see the own sub-creation become 'true', but we have to free ourself from that wish or desire, because it is narcissitic to a certain point. Respectfully Findegil |
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