The Perils of Pedantry

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

You know, now I wonder about this... I think there's something unique about books and about adapting them, but I also think there's something about Tolkien specifically that brings it out more than any other author. I think that the Harry Potter movies are an instructive case: also fantasy, also in the English language, also with a massively popular series of blockbusters in the 2000s--but I don't feel like that fandom ever had the same core of nitpicking curmudgeons that Middle-earth has had.

I don't know and I wouldn't be so hasty. Caustic LotR community is certainly more visible. However, I don't know about you but at least I have not been a part of any Harry Potter community, so I can't tell, however I can imagine something similar happening there to a degree. It only depends how much. I assume LotR community is obviously bigger, so that would influence also the absolute amount of caustic fans present. But I have no data to say whether the LotR community is simply 350% bigger and therefore 350% more caustic, or whether it is actually 350% bigger but in fact 500% more caustic.

Originally Posted by Form

I don't think Austen fans get as mad about details.

I don't know, I also wouldn't make such statements before checking some Austen forum... I can imagine someone being "in this adaptation, Elizabeth has wrong hairstyle!!!" or even "it CLEARLY states: 'the shadow of his coat spread from wall to wall like vast wings', OF COURSE Mr. Darcy had coattails!!!"

Originally Posted by Form

EDIT: Oh, and I've already had another thought: how much of the more sour part of the Tolkien fandom is culture war-related? At least on the western side of the Atlantic, it seems sometimes as though EVERYTHING has to be divided up into "our" side and "theirs." I remember being somewhat uneasy in my earliest 'Downsian years at the way some kinds of Christians wanted to make the LotR into a quasi-Biblical text. Is this partly a result of that--or analogous to it: is it simply that Tolkien has become yet another plaything in Great Tug o'War and the more acerbic nature of the pedantry that I'm complaining of is because the pedantry is actually a way to prove that the "REAL" LotR is on "MY" side of the war, and anything that makes me think it's becoming appropriated by the other side must be wholly discredited?

The latter may be very spot on, I think. I am also not sure how common it is, but I think - and this can be generalised, to anything from LotR to Star Wars but also to a debate about the Bible or about grocery selection, I think - often people tend to make "proxy wars" in this sense (in the same sense that e.g. the two major Cold War powers used e.g. Vietnam as proxy battlefield without having to actually meet head-on).

And I just wonder whether it is conscious or unconscious - I think it often may be even the latter: that one is presenting, even to themselves, "I am arguing here about whether Aragorn was right to claim the throne of Gondor, but what I in fact mean is to prove whether my homeland of Austro-Hungary should have the right to own Poland", or "I am presenting arguments whether Beren and Lúthien were right to marry according to Elvish law as witnessed by HoME vol. III §22" while I am in fact arguing whether it is right to marry without your parents' permission, because that is what I have mentally equated these with.

The way out is to realise that I am falling into this trap, that what I am arguing for here is in fact a defense-mechanism of my self-constructed "tribal identity". But in the context of this forum and all similar discussions, we are, first of all, travellers in Middle-Earth. We should remember that.

And another trap - against which LotR itself is a warning - is the desire to own, and to control (in this case: to own and control Middle-Earth), as opposed to just watch and enjoy the beauty. That is, I believe, also what we should constantly ask ourselves about when replying here or there.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't know and I wouldn't be so hasty. Caustic LotR community is certainly more visible. However, I don't know about you but at least I have not been a part of any Harry Potter community, so I can't tell, however I can imagine something similar happening there to a degree. It only depends how much. I assume LotR community is obviously bigger, so that would influence also the absolute amount of caustic fans present. But I have no data to say whether the LotR community is simply 350% bigger and therefore 350% more caustic, or whether it is actually 350% bigger but in fact 500% more caustic.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't know, I also wouldn't make such statements before checking some Austen forum... I can imagine someone being "in this adaptation, Elizabeth has wrong hairstyle!!!" or even "it CLEARLY states: 'the shadow of his coat spread from wall to wall like vast wings', OF COURSE Mr. Darcy had coattails!!!"

These are fair points--I am very much writing from WITHIN the Tolkien fandom, so even where I may at times being a more pan-fandom environment (LiveJournal 15 years ago, Tumblr now), I more attuned to mentions of Tolkien than I would be to, say, Rowling or Austen.

That said... I don't actually think I'm overstepping the bounds of the probable: there is something about the Tolkien fan experience that rewards detail-oriented fans more than most fandoms and this creates a higher rate of pedantry--it's more baked in.

I don't think it's UNIQUE to Tolkien, but the best analogies for "rewards detail-oriented fans" are otherwise going to be the giant, corporation-made fandoms like Star Wars or Marvel. But while there's certainly acrimonious fans in fandoms like that, and while they certainly do have their grumpy pedants, the fact that the acrimony can be pointed towards a particular corporate scapegoat changes the dynamic: Tolkien fans are quite unlikely to direct ire at Tolkien himself and insofar as any adaptation may be wrong (howsoever they perceive it to be wrong), the easiest thing to do to discredit it is to APPEAL to Tolkien.

I actually think there is some of this with Star Wars fans, because George Lucas can be seen as the author--the problem is that his work has never been perceived as a unity in the same way as Tolkien's (I'm thinking of the big split between the original movies and the prequels), and his work was always the product of many minds and hands, no matter how involved he was.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And another trap - against which LotR itself is a warning - is the desire to own, and to control (in this case: to own and control Middle-Earth), as opposed to just watch and enjoy the beauty. That is, I believe, also what we should constantly ask ourselves about when replying here or there.

"The [fans] delved too deep [into the footnotes of The Nature of Middle-earth."

[Lalwendë]

Janeites most certainly do get into a rage if one of the books is improperly adapted. Maybe not over hair colour as this wasn't often described, but the recent Netflix version of Persuasion had lots of criticism. The Fleabag-esque breaking of the third wall was not popular, nor were the scenes of public affection. Captain Wentworth was also seen as too young. The race of the actors, however, was not a problem.

Being a pedant really isn't limited to 'nerdy' things like Tolkien or Doctor Who. My dad refused to watch any more of Pearl Harbor after a line where the star Ben Affleck claims the Americans were instrumental in the initial Battle of Britain. We have football facts nerds, grown men who argue about the motorway network, and Alfie will correct you immediately if you mis-pronounce the name of any Pokémon.

It's a badge of honour to correct another fan. Absolutely right though, while you or I might get a kick out of it, especially arguing with someone objectionable (I enjoyed correcting Darren Grimes no end on twitter), if you're trying to be welcoming to newer fans, it's not good. Formendacil is right - there's no joy in it. It's not a shiny badge, to me it feels a bit spoiled afterwards?