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11-09-2009, 02:36 PM | #1 | ||
Animated Skeleton
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Yavanna's Chosen
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It is said that of all the Istari Gandalf was the only one to have remained faithful to the task set by the Valar. I wonder then was Yavanna's choice of Aiwendil specific to her purpose and if so did he in fact remain faithful to her and ultimately succeed in Middle-Earth?
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11-09-2009, 03:02 PM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I figure that Radagast's task was, like that of the other Istari, to help the Free Peoples to fight against Sauron. I think his specific purpose, what he should have done, would have been to observe that animals and such do not fall to Sauron and offer resistence to him, so to say, battle on this field while others are concerned primarily with maintaining Gondor etc., Radagast's task would be to see that not only for example the Men of Gondor stand against Sauron, but also that the animals in the forests of Gondor are not dangerous, i.e. it would be nice to have a land of proud men, but what if Sauron infiltrated the West through the woods, so to say, with some corrupted beasts or whatever. His task could have been also to appeal to the more "hidden" folks of Middle-Earth, like the Woodmen or perhaps Drúedain.
Last but not least, I think Radagast could have been there to give the Istari's mission "ecological" aspect. I.e. prevent that, for example, Saruman would not come and say "Oh, I know how to defeat Sauron! Let's build ten thousand factories and forge unbeatable weapons." Radagast's vocation would have been probably to correct his course at that point. So, all in all, I think in comparison to others Radagast remained relatively quite close to his task (although we don't really know about Alatar and Pallando), but still, not enough. He was, let's say, lazy, distracted, probably did not fulfil his tasks, did not do what he should. He and Saruman should have had warmer relationship (it is hinted that they were chosen intentionally together), maybe in the optimal case Saruman's eagerness would have kept Radagast active, while Radagast would have helped Saruman to calm down and take into account also others than himself. Alas, neither of that happened.
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11-09-2009, 06:05 PM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Other things he might have been sent to do.
Make sure no one tired in the corse of the wars (and post wars) decided to go an extermianted the Ents who were as I recall in some ways Yavanna's chosen children (much as the dwarves were Aule's). As the war progressed or possibly once the war ended and men became numerous there might have been a risk of men trying to exterminate the Ents for more or less the same reason Saruman's forces tried to, so as to be able to fell trees at thier leisure wherever and whenever they chose, with impunity. Assuming that Ishari retain, in some degree the qualities and inclinations of the Maiar they were and the Valar they served, Yavanna may indeed, as Legate proposed have been necceary to keep ME ecosystem intact. Of the remaing four Saurman (Aule's) was indeed very mechanistic and might have tried to talk the free peoples into a very mechanistic world view of "tech over nature" Gandalf was concered very much with the people directly (at least it might have seemed so when he first came) and might have seen the sacrafice of ME the land an accepatble loss if it ultimately benfited the actual people in the short term. As for Alatar and Pallando they were sent by Orome, who presumably is not called "the Huntsman" for nothing. Under thier tutelage once the war with Sauron was over man might have hunted all of the beast of ME to extinction. Maybe Yavanna did think ME needed a worlds advocate. |
11-09-2009, 06:13 PM | #4 |
Sage & Onions
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Radagast the Simpleton
I've often wondered if Radagast had more of a hand in the story than we generally appreciate.
Specifically as a contact with The Eagles (and if eagles perhaps Manwe???)- Bilbo & co at the fir trees, Battle of Five Armies, Gandalf's ecape from Orthanc and from Zirak Zigil, Battle of the Morannon, rescue of Frodo and Sam - so fairly influential I'd say. Of course we can't really link any of these with Radagast except the escape from Orthanc, but I think it's a possibility. So perhaps Radagast failed 'on points' ? His heart was in the right place but he just didn't get sufficiently involved with the fight against Sauron?
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11-10-2009, 08:59 AM | #5 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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And otherwise I very much agree with what Alfirin said, that was what I was basically trying to express too.
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11-10-2009, 01:16 PM | #6 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
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Among other tasks, I'm pretty sure Radagast's activities included furthering higher education among foxes, qualifying them to observe Hobbit behaviour patterns and comment on irregularities therein.
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11-10-2009, 02:46 PM | #7 | ||
Animated Skeleton
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It may be fair to say Radagast could have fallen foul of the honey dripping from Saruman's forked tongue. When Gandalf relates his meeting with Radagast back to Elrond he is certain that he had not given himself to the whim of Saruman, simply that Saruman had played on the honest nature of Radagast for his own ends. I do not believe Radagast knew the extent of Saruman's fall, his designs or his dominion by Sauron. He simply acted in good faith to warn a brother in need. That of course does not answer whether he succeeded in Middle-Earth in the role appointed him by the Valar. It does however show that he did play a role in undermining Sauron by contributing to frustrating his efforts. However, it would seem that his heart was given to all things that grow and the animals that live among them. He became the ultimate gardener of Middle-Earth his focus on all things made by Yavanna. With Middle-Earth now closed to The West, sending a Maiar (Kindred Spirit) in whom she could extend her own hand was a masterstroke but difficult to quantify. Remember, she was adamant he go with Saruman as she had her own motives over and above bringing together the free peoples of middle-earth to unite in their insurgence against Sauron.
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11-10-2009, 07:38 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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11-11-2009, 07:28 AM | #9 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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First (starting from the end): I believe Radagast could not return. He didn't fulfil his mission, and it was not Gandalf's authority to tell him to come or stay. Second: Gandalf did not force people to do anything. Radagast was still doing something, good (birds helping etc.). Gandalf thought that Saruman, also, until Gandalf learned about his treachery, was doing something to help. Each of the Wizards had their own agenda, so to say (this is where I see the primal failure of Saruman as the Head of the Order, by the way - not that he should have forced others to do as he wished, but his task as the First of the Order was certainly to oversee the others and facilitate some communication between them, not just that everybody roams freely without not caring at all about others. I am not speaking of any big coordinated machinations here, but if Saruman fulfilled his part, I believe he would have prevented Radagast from crawling away among his animals and lazing around instead of trying to do his task. That said, in my opinion it was not really Gandalf's position to "discipline" Radagast - it was mainly Saruman's responsibility, Gandalf, of all people, tried hard to fulfil HIS tasks, and he really did not have time to stand over Radagast all the time shouting at him about what he should have been doing. I can assume Gandalf would have reminded Radagast of his tasks when they happened to see each other once in a while, but he did not have time nor authority to oversee him all the time.) As for "unlike Saruman, Gandalf seemed to have high opinion of Radagast", well, I don't think it was that way. First, it is not hard to have better opinion on Radagast than Saruman did. Second, Gandalf is just not the type of person who would dump another, despite whatever shortcomings the person had. Look at how he kept asking Saruman over and over again, after his fall, to come back and offered him mercy. Radagast was honest, that was what Gandalf praised about him, but it tells nothing about his work. Third: Gandalf coming to "force Radagast to make the beasts join the Free People", I think that is not really the thing that would happen. First, once again, it was not Gandalf who had the authority, only Saruman could have done that. Actually, I can well imagine Saruman doing that, if it came down to it - that is, if Saruman decided that some stupid animals could be of any use in war. But anyway, the task was not to make the animals "join the Free People", but to, as Gandalf did it with the people, make them resist Sauron. The Istari's mission was all about that - and it is very largely spoken of in the Unfinished Tales - not uniting the Free People (and animals) and making them attack the Dark Lord, but giving them hope, supporting their resistence, giving them the strength to fight Sauron on their own. It was Saruman who fell into the trap of this "power solution", I am quite inclined to believe that even if he remained true to the cause of the Free People, he would have overthrown Sauron by force. Which means, once again, failing his mission. That was not the Wizards' task.
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12-27-2009, 02:15 PM | #10 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
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Why would Treebeard have made that remark, if Radagast had been furthering the Entish cause in Middle-earth, and generally doing a lot of good? It seems to me Radagast really didn't do much of any note. His one shining moment was the rescue of Gandalf from Orthanc by Gwaihir, but even that was only accomplished because of Gandalf, who had asked Radagast to arrange for news to be sent to Isengard.
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01-01-2010, 07:49 PM | #11 | |
Eagle of the Star
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01-01-2010, 11:17 PM | #12 |
Gruesome Spectre
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That would seem to say even less for Radagast. Gandalf's forte was primarily working with the remaining Eldar and Dúnedain, and the fact that to the chief of the Ents he was more notable than Radagast, who was supposedly looking out for Yavanna's interests, suggests Radagast failed even in his 'secondary' mission.
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01-05-2010, 08:44 AM | #13 |
Eagle of the Star
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Why is being notable to an ent of any relevance here? Like I said before, it's not like ents have a natural inclination towards quick and exhaustive exchange of information. They may take a whole day just to greet each other :/ Furthermore, the race of the ents is one with no future in the later history of Arda. If Aiwendil has a limited time at his disposal, why would he waste time with a dying race, instead of planting "seeds", of doing actions that will have far reaching repercussions, no matter how subtle and inconspicuous they may seem - the last act of Yavanna, her last chance to influence the reign of the living, to fulfill her role and "guard" her title as queen of the earth.
The wisdom of the plans of this valie, second in reverence only to Varda, certainly surpasses the comprehension power of an ent; after all, ents seem to have a rather narrow focus on the tall trees and the likes, pretty much ignoring the greater variety of the reign of the living. Ents, who also weren't capable of comprehending/ preventing the departure of the entwives, thus sealing their own departure from the stage.
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01-07-2010, 03:08 PM | #14 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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All I'm saying is that I think it's telling when someone like Treebeard, who knew Gandalf fairly well (even though trees were far from the latter's focus) didn't even think to speak of Radagast during the entire time we see and hear him. I have to wonder whether Radagast did anything really worthwhile in the Third Age. Yes, he had a rapport with beasts and birds, and perhaps they were able to bring some useful information to the White Council. However, I think the Eagles of the Misty Mountains would have aided Gandalf with or without Radagast's help, and they were apparently Gandalf's chief source of news. Saruman, however seems to have found Radagast fairly helpful in tracking the Fellowship after they left Rivendell. Aragorn noted the crebain watching them in Hollin were native to Fangorn. Since Saruman doesn't give the impression of being very good with animals and birds, I have to put that down to another of Radagast's 'accomplishments'. There's no indication Radagast ever realised Saruman had turned to evil, and for all we know he may have told his bird friends to keep sending Saruman news while he frolicked in some woodland meadow, oblivious to the War of the Ring.
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01-08-2010, 06:29 PM | #15 | |
Wight
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I believe that although Radagast failed to fight or give any significant help during the War of the Ring, he was sent to ME not in vain. He probably made an influence on living creatures which could prevent Sauron to use them. What was his main goal was that he established good relationships with Beorn. Beorn defenitely had high opinion of Radagast and I am not sure whether Gandalf could have conquered Beorn's heart so easily if he hadn't had an opportunity to introduce himself as Radagst's cousin. Now let's recall that Beorn made a final blow in The Battle of Five Armies which gave a chance to reform the entire region east of Misty Mountains.Can we suppose that Radagast's influence was important for harmony in the area between Misty Mountains and Dale? No doubt, Radagast failed to give any aid during the most important period of struggle against Sauron. We don't know why he disappeared. He could've been killed by Nazgul of Dol Gudur. But it looks more likely that he went into hiding after the outbreak of the war in his area. So he didn't return to Valinor, but he hadn't fallen like Saruman. He probably could've been granted some quiet retirement like Bombadil (if we choose a version that the latter was a Maia too). Last edited by Sarumian; 01-09-2010 at 05:12 AM. |
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01-09-2010, 04:57 AM | #16 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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We have a single opinion expressed here, by one representative of a race concerned with a limited land, and even there, probably focused on just a few species - everything else, even there (sloe, small trees, green herbs, grasses, etc) seem to escape their notice anyway. If they aren't experts and/or watchers over all these "fields", I don't see why we should be concerned too much with their opinion, if the work of Yavanna has a greater scope anyway.
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01-09-2010, 09:11 AM | #17 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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If successful though, even at the secondary task of protecting flora and fauna from Sauron and his armies, why do we not see him taking ship with Gandalf after Sauron's defeat? The Istari, at the end of the day, were the enemies of Sauron, and their primary concern was his fall. Saruman obviously did not fulfill his part in that mission. The 'Blue Wizards' too, we are told, were unsuccessful. It is said that only Gandalf 'remained faithful', and he is the only one of the Istari returning home to the West after Sauron's destruction. Either Radagast couldn't take the ship because he had failed in the Eyes of Authority in the West, or he wouldn't, because he had forgotten both his tasks: the 'official' one, and the 'secret'. If he had accomplished things to Yavanna's satisfaction, surely she could have arranged for him to return home, as the 'secret' mission would have been well known to Manwë.
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01-09-2010, 12:00 PM | #18 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Here's something Tolkien had to say on the matter, from letter 156, beginning with a commentary on the incarnate nature of the Wizards:
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01-09-2010, 10:47 PM | #19 | ||||||
Eagle of the Star
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The fact of the matter is we do not know how the Yavanna-mission unfolded; it's a black box to us, we don't know what happened there. Even if someone had a palantir at his disposal, to watch every single move that Aiwendil did from the moment he set foot on Middle-Earth to the moment his mortal body eventually perished - even in that case, which of us could claim to know and perceive all the ripple effects of even the most inconspicuous actions? What do we know about the magic of Yavanna, working in this world? About how the fate of the living reign needed sustenance from her emissary? And if we don't know that, how could we claim failure? Quote:
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