The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-09-2009, 02:36 PM   #1
Ancalagon'sFire
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 41
Ancalagon'sFire has just left Hobbiton.
Yavanna's Chosen

Quote:
Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts").
Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Quote:
There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna's evident desire that the Istari should include in their number one with particular love of the things of her making could only be achieved by imposing Radagast's company on Saruman; while the suggestion in the essay on the Istari (p.407) that in becoming enamoured of the wild creatures of Middle-earth Radagast neglected the purpose for which he was sent if perhaps not perfectly in accord with the idea of his being specially chosen by Yavanna.
Unfinished Tales - The Istari

It is said that of all the Istari Gandalf was the only one to have remained faithful to the task set by the Valar. I wonder then was Yavanna's choice of Aiwendil specific to her purpose and if so did he in fact remain faithful to her and ultimately succeed in Middle-Earth?
Ancalagon'sFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 03:02 PM   #2
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
I figure that Radagast's task was, like that of the other Istari, to help the Free Peoples to fight against Sauron. I think his specific purpose, what he should have done, would have been to observe that animals and such do not fall to Sauron and offer resistence to him, so to say, battle on this field while others are concerned primarily with maintaining Gondor etc., Radagast's task would be to see that not only for example the Men of Gondor stand against Sauron, but also that the animals in the forests of Gondor are not dangerous, i.e. it would be nice to have a land of proud men, but what if Sauron infiltrated the West through the woods, so to say, with some corrupted beasts or whatever. His task could have been also to appeal to the more "hidden" folks of Middle-Earth, like the Woodmen or perhaps Drúedain.

Last but not least, I think Radagast could have been there to give the Istari's mission "ecological" aspect. I.e. prevent that, for example, Saruman would not come and say "Oh, I know how to defeat Sauron! Let's build ten thousand factories and forge unbeatable weapons." Radagast's vocation would have been probably to correct his course at that point.

So, all in all, I think in comparison to others Radagast remained relatively quite close to his task (although we don't really know about Alatar and Pallando), but still, not enough. He was, let's say, lazy, distracted, probably did not fulfil his tasks, did not do what he should. He and Saruman should have had warmer relationship (it is hinted that they were chosen intentionally together), maybe in the optimal case Saruman's eagerness would have kept Radagast active, while Radagast would have helped Saruman to calm down and take into account also others than himself. Alas, neither of that happened.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 06:05 PM   #3
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Other things he might have been sent to do.

Make sure no one tired in the corse of the wars (and post wars) decided to go an extermianted the Ents who were as I recall in some ways Yavanna's chosen children (much as the dwarves were Aule's). As the war progressed or possibly once the war ended and men became numerous there might have been a risk of men trying to exterminate the Ents for more or less the same reason Saruman's forces tried to, so as to be able to fell trees at thier leisure wherever and whenever they chose, with impunity.

Assuming that Ishari retain, in some degree the qualities and inclinations of the Maiar they were and the Valar they served, Yavanna may indeed, as Legate proposed have been necceary to keep ME ecosystem intact. Of the remaing four Saurman (Aule's) was indeed very mechanistic and might have tried to talk the free peoples into a very mechanistic world view of "tech over nature" Gandalf was concered very much with the people directly (at least it might have seemed so when he first came) and might have seen the sacrafice of ME the land an accepatble loss if it ultimately benfited the actual people in the short term. As for Alatar and Pallando they were sent by Orome, who presumably is not called "the Huntsman" for nothing. Under thier tutelage once the war with Sauron was over man might have hunted all of the beast of ME to extinction. Maybe Yavanna did think ME needed a worlds advocate.
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 06:13 PM   #4
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Eye Radagast the Simpleton

I've often wondered if Radagast had more of a hand in the story than we generally appreciate.

Specifically as a contact with The Eagles (and if eagles perhaps Manwe???)-

Bilbo & co at the fir trees, Battle of Five Armies, Gandalf's ecape from Orthanc and from Zirak Zigil, Battle of the Morannon, rescue of Frodo and Sam - so fairly influential I'd say.

Of course we can't really link any of these with Radagast except the escape from Orthanc, but I think it's a possibility.

So perhaps Radagast failed 'on points' ? His heart was in the right place but he just didn't get sufficiently involved with the fight against Sauron?
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 08:59 AM   #5
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumil View Post
So perhaps Radagast failed 'on points' ? His heart was in the right place but he just didn't get sufficiently involved with the fight against Sauron?
Yes, I think that would be roughly summing it up in a few words. And of the examples you mentioned, even if Radagast was not directly involved in the events, we might perhaps ascribe to him some influence on the animals in question - like, if in the Hobbit we hear that some (the "Non-High") eagles were "cruel", perhaps Radagast's influence at some point helped to increase the ranks of the "good eagles" in comparison to the "bad guys" among them, which in turn could have led to giving the eagles more chances and space and "manpower" to operate outside their own nests, which in turn could have indirectly led to them being capable of saving Gandalf or intervening in the Battle of the Five Armies.

And otherwise I very much agree with what Alfirin said, that was what I was basically trying to express too.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 01:16 PM   #6
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Among other tasks, I'm pretty sure Radagast's activities included furthering higher education among foxes, qualifying them to observe Hobbit behaviour patterns and comment on irregularities therein.
More seriously -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
Last but not least, I think Radagast could have been there to give the Istari's mission "ecological" aspect. I.e. prevent that, for example, Saruman would not come and say "Oh, I know how to defeat Sauron! Let's build ten thousand factories and forge unbeatable weapons." Radagast's vocation would have been probably to correct his course at that point.
This sounds very plausible, except that he didn't - in other words, if such was his mission, he failed bigtime. I really don't understand why Radagast apparently trusted Saruman so long. All that tree-felling, burning and smeltering in and around Isengard should have outraged him - but in the short dialogue scene reported by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond, which seems to imply that Radagast had come straight from Orthanc looking for Gandalf, there's no hint of anything of the sort. So, are we to suppose that the whole industrialization of Isengard, including the breeding and armament of a huge army of Uruks, was done in the following months, with no preparations visible at the time of Radagast's last visit, or did he tell himself, "Well, I don't like at all what Saruman is doing there, but he's the head of the Order, so I won't question him?" If the latter, he really was the simpleton Saruman took him for, much as I'd prefer to think there was a little more to him.
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 02:46 PM   #7
Ancalagon'sFire
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 41
Ancalagon'sFire has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
So, are we to suppose that the whole industrialization of Isengard, including the breeding and armament of a huge army of Uruks, was done in the following months, with no preparations visible at the time of Radagast's last visit, or did he tell himself, "Well, I don't like at all what Saruman is doing there, but he's the head of the Order, so I won't question him?" If the latter, he really was the simpleton Saruman took him for, much as I'd prefer to think there was a little more to him.
You raise an interesting point in relation to what Radagast observed at Orthanc, which we can but surmise. Suffice to say he was there before Gandalf had visited and Saruman had not yet begun to prepare his army with such vigour. It had already been months gone by before Radagast found Gandalf and explained the news given him by Saruman. The role Saruman wanted him to play.

Quote:
Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spake to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it.
The Lord of the Rings

It may be fair to say Radagast could have fallen foul of the honey dripping from Saruman's forked tongue. When Gandalf relates his meeting with Radagast back to Elrond he is certain that he had not given himself to the whim of Saruman, simply that Saruman had played on the honest nature of Radagast for his own ends. I do not believe Radagast knew the extent of Saruman's fall, his designs or his dominion by Sauron. He simply acted in good faith to warn a brother in need.

That of course does not answer whether he succeeded in Middle-Earth in the role appointed him by the Valar. It does however show that he did play a role in undermining Sauron by contributing to frustrating his efforts. However, it would seem that his heart was given to all things that grow and the animals that live among them. He became the ultimate gardener of Middle-Earth his focus on all things made by Yavanna. With Middle-Earth now closed to The West, sending a Maiar (Kindred Spirit) in whom she could extend her own hand was a masterstroke but difficult to quantify. Remember, she was adamant he go with Saruman as she had her own motives over and above bringing together the free peoples of middle-earth to unite in their insurgence against Sauron.

Last edited by Ancalagon'sFire; 11-10-2009 at 05:35 PM.
Ancalagon'sFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 07:38 PM   #8
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancalagon'sFire View Post
. He became the ultimate gardener of Middle-Earth his focus on all things made by Yavanna. With Middle-Earth now closed to The West, sending a Maiar (Kindred Spirit) in whom she could extend her own hand was a masterstroke but difficult to quantify. Remember, she was adamant he go with Saruman as she had her own motives over and above bringing together the free peoples of middle-earth to unite in their insurgence against Sauron.
Good point. Radagast is the ultimate gardern (or is gardener the right word for waht he did, maybe caretaker, gamekeeper/warden, or even ranger (in the sense we tend to use it today not in the Tolkein sense). Radagast may have gone astray failed in the Ishari Mission, but I wonder if he had his own mission from Yavanna herself, and if he did in that mission he may has suceeded spectacuarly. Whatever faults Tolkein Himeslf may have found in Radagast, it seems, from within the context of the story Ganadalf found none, or if he did he accepted them. He never came to Radagast and tried to exort him to force the beasts of the wood to join the free peoples (Radagast may or may not have done things to help the Allicance, but if he did, it appears he did so on his own onus and by his own free will). Unilke Saruman, Gandalf seems to have a very high opion of Radagast (even going so far as I recall, in the Hobbit of mentioning him to Beorn as a way to introduce himself (or am I just remembering the BBC Radio show). Most important of all Gandalf in a certain sense, ultimately leaves all of ME in Radagast's hands. He makes no effort to try and convice Radagast to return with him to the west (assuming for the moment that Radagast actually could) still less to try and force him to, which in his Gandalf the White aspect (and likey de facto current head of the Istari) he just might have the authority to do. Gandald trusts Radagast enough to leave him as the ONLY wizard in ME, unchecked unapposed and (within the confines of his human body) unhindered in any way (Radagast my not be anywhere as strong as Gandalf or Saruman but he is still a wizard) . Given who Gandalf is, that is saying a lot.
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2009, 07:28 AM   #9
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
Good point. Radagast is the ultimate gardern (or is gardener the right word for waht he did, maybe caretaker, gamekeeper/warden, or even ranger (in the sense we tend to use it today not in the Tolkein sense). Radagast may have gone astray failed in the Ishari Mission, but I wonder if he had his own mission from Yavanna herself, and if he did in that mission he may has suceeded spectacuarly. Whatever faults Tolkein Himeslf may have found in Radagast, it seems, from within the context of the story Ganadalf found none, or if he did he accepted them. He never came to Radagast and tried to exort him to force the beasts of the wood to join the free peoples (Radagast may or may not have done things to help the Allicance, but if he did, it appears he did so on his own onus and by his own free will). Unilke Saruman, Gandalf seems to have a very high opion of Radagast (even going so far as I recall, in the Hobbit of mentioning him to Beorn as a way to introduce himself (or am I just remembering the BBC Radio show). Most important of all Gandalf in a certain sense, ultimately leaves all of ME in Radagast's hands. He makes no effort to try and convice Radagast to return with him to the west (assuming for the moment that Radagast actually could) still less to try and force him to, which in his Gandalf the White aspect (and likey de facto current head of the Istari) he just might have the authority to do. Gandald trusts Radagast enough to leave him as the ONLY wizard in ME, unchecked unapposed and (within the confines of his human body) unhindered in any way (Radagast my not be anywhere as strong as Gandalf or Saruman but he is still a wizard) . Given who Gandalf is, that is saying a lot.
No, no, no, I actually see this thing from a completely different point of view.

First (starting from the end): I believe Radagast could not return. He didn't fulfil his mission, and it was not Gandalf's authority to tell him to come or stay.

Second: Gandalf did not force people to do anything. Radagast was still doing something, good (birds helping etc.). Gandalf thought that Saruman, also, until Gandalf learned about his treachery, was doing something to help. Each of the Wizards had their own agenda, so to say (this is where I see the primal failure of Saruman as the Head of the Order, by the way - not that he should have forced others to do as he wished, but his task as the First of the Order was certainly to oversee the others and facilitate some communication between them, not just that everybody roams freely without not caring at all about others. I am not speaking of any big coordinated machinations here, but if Saruman fulfilled his part, I believe he would have prevented Radagast from crawling away among his animals and lazing around instead of trying to do his task. That said, in my opinion it was not really Gandalf's position to "discipline" Radagast - it was mainly Saruman's responsibility, Gandalf, of all people, tried hard to fulfil HIS tasks, and he really did not have time to stand over Radagast all the time shouting at him about what he should have been doing. I can assume Gandalf would have reminded Radagast of his tasks when they happened to see each other once in a while, but he did not have time nor authority to oversee him all the time.) As for "unlike Saruman, Gandalf seemed to have high opinion of Radagast", well, I don't think it was that way. First, it is not hard to have better opinion on Radagast than Saruman did. Second, Gandalf is just not the type of person who would dump another, despite whatever shortcomings the person had. Look at how he kept asking Saruman over and over again, after his fall, to come back and offered him mercy. Radagast was honest, that was what Gandalf praised about him, but it tells nothing about his work.

Third: Gandalf coming to "force Radagast to make the beasts join the Free People", I think that is not really the thing that would happen. First, once again, it was not Gandalf who had the authority, only Saruman could have done that. Actually, I can well imagine Saruman doing that, if it came down to it - that is, if Saruman decided that some stupid animals could be of any use in war. But anyway, the task was not to make the animals "join the Free People", but to, as Gandalf did it with the people, make them resist Sauron. The Istari's mission was all about that - and it is very largely spoken of in the Unfinished Tales - not uniting the Free People (and animals) and making them attack the Dark Lord, but giving them hope, supporting their resistence, giving them the strength to fight Sauron on their own. It was Saruman who fell into the trap of this "power solution", I am quite inclined to believe that even if he remained true to the cause of the Free People, he would have overthrown Sauron by force. Which means, once again, failing his mission. That was not the Wizards' task.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2009, 02:15 PM   #10
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
Other things [Radagast] might have been sent to do.

Make sure no one tired in the corse of the wars (and post wars) decided to go an extermianted the Ents who were as I recall in some ways Yavanna's chosen children (much as the dwarves were Aule's).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancalagon'sFire View Post
That of course does not answer whether he succeeded in Middle-Earth in the role appointed him by the Valar. It does however show that he did play a role in undermining Sauron by contributing to frustrating his efforts. However, it would seem that his heart was given to all things that grow and the animals that live among them. He became the ultimate gardener of Middle-Earth his focus on all things made by Yavanna.
If Radagast's special role was to protect Yavanna's interests, it's odd that her 'children', the Ents, didn't appear to give Radagast very high marks.

Quote:
'Yes, I do know [Gandalf]: the only wizard that really cares about trees,' said Treebeard.
TTT Treebeard

Why would Treebeard have made that remark, if Radagast had been furthering the Entish cause in Middle-earth, and generally doing a lot of good?
It seems to me Radagast really didn't do much of any note. His one shining moment was the rescue of Gandalf from Orthanc by Gwaihir, but even that was only accomplished because of Gandalf, who had asked Radagast to arrange for news to be sent to Isengard.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2010, 07:49 PM   #11
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
'Yes, I do know [Gandalf]: the only wizard that really cares about trees,' said Treebeard.
Well, we might attribute that to many things. On one hand, Gandalf may have impressed the ent very much, with his dedication, passion, and possible higher spiritual standing, so that even if the other istari did they best, they just couldn't measure up to him. On the other hand, how extensive would this ent's knowledge of the deeds of the istari be? He doesn't strike me as a being that would wander high and low, get into contacts/talk with other races, or keep a watch over others, so as to measure them. To a certain degree, the influence of Gandalf on the affairs of the incarnate has been quite subtle, why couldn't we say the same about the deeds on Aiwendil in regards to nature?
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2010, 11:17 PM   #12
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor View Post
Well, we might attribute that to many things. On one hand, Gandalf may have impressed the ent very much, with his dedication, passion, and possible higher spiritual standing, so that even if the other istari did they best, they just couldn't measure up to him.
That would seem to say even less for Radagast. Gandalf's forte was primarily working with the remaining Eldar and Dúnedain, and the fact that to the chief of the Ents he was more notable than Radagast, who was supposedly looking out for Yavanna's interests, suggests Radagast failed even in his 'secondary' mission.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 08:44 AM   #13
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Why is being notable to an ent of any relevance here? Like I said before, it's not like ents have a natural inclination towards quick and exhaustive exchange of information. They may take a whole day just to greet each other :/ Furthermore, the race of the ents is one with no future in the later history of Arda. If Aiwendil has a limited time at his disposal, why would he waste time with a dying race, instead of planting "seeds", of doing actions that will have far reaching repercussions, no matter how subtle and inconspicuous they may seem - the last act of Yavanna, her last chance to influence the reign of the living, to fulfill her role and "guard" her title as queen of the earth.

The wisdom of the plans of this valie, second in reverence only to Varda, certainly surpasses the comprehension power of an ent; after all, ents seem to have a rather narrow focus on the tall trees and the likes, pretty much ignoring the greater variety of the reign of the living. Ents, who also weren't capable of comprehending/ preventing the departure of the entwives, thus sealing their own departure from the stage.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 03:08 PM   #14
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor View Post
Why is being notable to an ent of any relevance here
Like I said before, it's not like ents have a natural inclination towards quick and exhaustive exchange of information. They may take a whole day just to greet each other :/ Furthermore, the race of the ents is one with no future in the later history of Arda.?
I see it entirely differently. If we are to judge Radagast on the basis of how well he fulfilled his secondary task of looking out for Yavanna's interests, I would think the Ents would have been the most credible, as they themselves had the fundamental purpose of protecting trees and forests, in line with Yavanna's desire.
All I'm saying is that I think it's telling when someone like Treebeard, who knew Gandalf fairly well (even though trees were far from the latter's focus) didn't even think to speak of Radagast during the entire time we see and hear him. I have to wonder whether Radagast did anything really worthwhile in the Third Age. Yes, he had a rapport with beasts and birds, and perhaps they were able to bring some useful information to the White Council. However, I think the Eagles of the Misty Mountains would have aided Gandalf with or without Radagast's help, and they were apparently Gandalf's chief source of news. Saruman, however seems to have found Radagast fairly helpful in tracking the Fellowship after they left Rivendell.
Aragorn noted the crebain watching them in Hollin were native to Fangorn. Since Saruman doesn't give the impression of being very good with animals and birds, I have to put that down to another of Radagast's 'accomplishments'. There's no indication Radagast ever realised Saruman had turned to evil, and for all we know he may have told his bird friends to keep sending Saruman news while he frolicked in some woodland meadow, oblivious to the War of the Ring.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 06:29 PM   #15
Sarumian
Wight
 
Sarumian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 129
Sarumian is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
White-Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Aragorn noted the crebain watching them in Hollin were native to Fangorn. Since Saruman doesn't give the impression of being very good with animals and birds, I have to put that down to another of Radagast's 'accomplishments'.
I think this suspicion is going a bit too far. When Saruman needed, he contacted even ents, as Treebeard told hobbits. After all, he was a wizard and was able to persuade living creatures into his service.

I believe that although Radagast failed to fight or give any significant help during the War of the Ring, he was sent to ME not in vain. He probably made an influence on living creatures which could prevent Sauron to use them. What was his main goal was that he established good relationships with Beorn. Beorn defenitely had high opinion of Radagast and I am not sure whether Gandalf could have conquered Beorn's heart so easily if he hadn't had an opportunity to introduce himself as Radagst's cousin. Now let's recall that Beorn made a final blow in The Battle of Five Armies which gave a chance to reform the entire region east of Misty Mountains.Can we suppose that Radagast's influence was important for harmony in the area between Misty Mountains and Dale?

No doubt, Radagast failed to give any aid during the most important period of struggle against Sauron. We don't know why he disappeared. He could've been killed by Nazgul of Dol Gudur. But it looks more likely that he went into hiding after the outbreak of the war in his area. So he didn't return to Valinor, but he hadn't fallen like Saruman. He probably could've been granted some quiet retirement like Bombadil (if we choose a version that the latter was a Maia too).

Last edited by Sarumian; 01-09-2010 at 05:12 AM.
Sarumian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2010, 04:57 AM   #16
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
I see it entirely differently. If we are to judge Radagast on the basis of how well he fulfilled his secondary task of looking out for Yavanna's interests, I would think the Ents would have been the most credible, as they themselves had the fundamental purpose of protecting trees and forests, in line with Yavanna's desire.
Again, ents are very limited in their own focus:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR, Chapter 4
The ents loved the great trees; and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills... But the entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and they saw the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer, and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields.

We were only a legend to [Men], a secret in the heart of the forest.
The ents' major interest seem to be the really big trees of the forest, while all the rest seem to be outside their concern. That doesn't make them very reliable source tbh. Also, the very fact that they take care of at least the trees in their area, would require very little intervention on Aiwendil's behalf; that, coupled with the fact that ents are rather reclusive and sticking to their own parcel ["we are a legend to [Men], a secret in the heart of the forest"], gives a pretty good reason for their very limited knowledge about his abilities and actions.

We have a single opinion expressed here, by one representative of a race concerned with a limited land, and even there, probably focused on just a few species - everything else, even there (sloe, small trees, green herbs, grasses, etc) seem to escape their notice anyway. If they aren't experts and/or watchers over all these "fields", I don't see why we should be concerned too much with their opinion, if the work of Yavanna has a greater scope anyway.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2010, 09:11 AM   #17
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor View Post
We have a single opinion expressed here, by one representative of a race concerned with a limited land, and even there, probably focused on just a few species - everything else, even there (sloe, small trees, green herbs, grasses, etc) seem to escape their notice anyway. If they aren't experts and/or watchers over all these "fields", I don't see why we should be concerned too much with their opinion, if the work of Yavanna has a greater scope anyway.
I'll concede Treebeard's line, while to me highly suggestive, is in itself not proof of Radagast's failure.
If successful though, even at the secondary task of protecting flora and fauna from Sauron and his armies, why do we not see him taking ship with Gandalf after Sauron's defeat? The Istari, at the end of the day, were the enemies of Sauron, and their primary concern was his fall. Saruman obviously did not fulfill his part in that mission. The 'Blue Wizards' too, we are told, were unsuccessful. It is said that only Gandalf 'remained faithful', and he is the only one of the Istari returning home to the West after Sauron's destruction. Either Radagast couldn't take the ship because he had failed in the Eyes of Authority in the West, or he wouldn't, because he had forgotten both his tasks: the 'official' one, and the 'secret'. If he had accomplished things to Yavanna's satisfaction, surely she could have arranged for him to return home, as the 'secret' mission would have been well known to Manwë.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2010, 12:00 PM   #18
Ibrîniðilpathânezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrîniðilpathânezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Here's something Tolkien had to say on the matter, from letter 156, beginning with a commentary on the incarnate nature of the Wizards:

Quote:
Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just do the job for them. They thus appeared as 'old' sage figures. But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the faineance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods.' The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement).
If, in Tolkien's mind, Gandalf alone succeeded in the mission of the Istari, then Radagast failed -- not in the hideously spectacular way of Saruman, utterly betraying their purpose, but nonetheless falling away from the job he was sent to do. I think, perhaps, the fact that Treebeard mentions Gandalf as being the only wizard who loves trees is really quite telling. The Ents, the Shepherds of the Trees, were brought about as a result of Yavanna's supplication to Manwe (and Eru) for some protection for those things of Arda that she loved (as per the Aule and Yavanna chapter of TS). And yet, when it came to arousing the hearts and minds of the Ents to resistance of Sauron, it fell to two Hobbits rather than to Radagast, who of all the wizards should have been the one to make a specific effort to contact and advise and instruct the Ents. He apparently didn't, and thus failed his mission, as well, perhaps, as Yavanna, who I think would have wanted the Ents to be included among those peoples threatened by Sauron. The trees were the one thing that she selected as most beloved to her, and Radagast would appear to have either ignored or forgotten about them, in favor of his own personal love for birds (which is the meaning of his name as a Maia, Aiwendil).
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2010, 10:47 PM   #19
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
If successful though, even at the secondary task of protecting flora and fauna from Sauron and his armies, why do we not see him taking ship with Gandalf after Sauron's defeat?
I don't see why being on that particular ship is any sign of success for his Yavanna-mission or of rejection of re-entry back to the blessed lands. Didn't Gandalf too actually fail, from error of judgement, to getting himself killed and having to be resurrected by Eru? Yet despite his individual failure (transformed into success only due to enjoying spiritual majority with Iluvatar), we still see him on the ship, smiling and waving. Wasn't compassion and clemency shown even to Melkor and Sauron? So why wouldn't it be shown to a fellow maia, especially given a mighty burden, that of an actual body, with all its limitations, weaknesses and temptations that was imposed on him. Surely a lot more understanding would need to be shown in this case by the just valar, for a mission in which they themselves send the maiar to accomplish. Hey, even the Noldor are allowed back into Valinor :x. Also, we have no information that this particular ship is the only one that ever left Middle Earth after Sauron's demise nor that the Istari didn't have any other means of returning besides to Valinor besides jumping on a plank of wood.

The fact of the matter is we do not know how the Yavanna-mission unfolded; it's a black box to us, we don't know what happened there. Even if someone had a palantir at his disposal, to watch every single move that Aiwendil did from the moment he set foot on Middle-Earth to the moment his mortal body eventually perished - even in that case, which of us could claim to know and perceive all the ripple effects of even the most inconspicuous actions? What do we know about the magic of Yavanna, working in this world? About how the fate of the living reign needed sustenance from her emissary? And if we don't know that, how could we claim failure?
Quote:
I think, perhaps, the fact that Treebeard mentions Gandalf as being the only wizard who loves trees is really quite telling.
I won't repeat the points about how limited the scope of one Ent's knowledge is. And, again, ents should already be taking good care of their parcel, while there is literally the whole of green Middle-Earth to be supported (and not just trees btw). An overlap of 'authorities' and limited resources, of any kind, be they magic or simply of time, doesn't make much sense.
Quote:
The Ents, the Shepherds of the Trees, were brought about as a result of Yavanna's supplication to Manwe (and Eru) for some protection for those things of Arda that she loved (as per the Aule and Yavanna chapter of TS)
True, but there comes a time when all mythological creatures need to retreat from the world; first the valar, now the elves, and ents wouldn't be an exception to that. Times of great sorrows and mythological enemies require protectors of equal nature. But after the fall of Sauron, they are no longer needed in the world of Men, and ought to retreat.
Quote:
And yet, when it came to arousing the hearts and minds of the Ents to resistance of Sauron, it fell to two Hobbits rather than to Radagast, who of all the wizards should have been the one to make a specific effort to contact and advise and instruct the Ents. He apparently didn't, and thus failed his mission, as well, perhaps, as Yavanna, who I think would have wanted the Ents to be included among those peoples threatened by Sauron.
Was it known to him, or well, anyone else beforehand, that he had to contact the ents to do this and that? No, so I don't see why it is used against him, if he had no opportunity to start with, that he could refuse. The fact that it was the hobbits who had to meet the ents, and their personal transformation on so many levels, speaks more about their personal mission than about Aiwendil.
Quote:
The trees were the one thing that she selected as most beloved to her
Her most poignant image relates to the Two Trees, and her image itself is that of a tree, but this relates to the role she had to play at a certain time. However:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valaquenta, Silmarillion
She is the lover of all things that grow in the earth, and all their countless forms she holds in her mind, from the trees like towers in forests long ago to the moss upon stones or the small and secret things in the mould
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:59 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.