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littlemanpoet · 05-15-2011, 02:05 PM

Thanks, Aiwendil & Legate for the clarifications. What is then interesting to me is that towards the end of the song, there are two themes in competition, so to speak, the loud and brash theme, and the deep and profound and beautiful one.

Below follows much speculation:

Whether the Elves are part of both the 2nd and 3rd or just the 3rd matters little to me. In my mind it boils down to this:

(1) First Theme: Reality
(2) Melkor's discord: Evil
----> result, discord
(3) Second Theme: Powers introduced to contend with the Evil
---- > in the end Melkor has the mastery
(4) Third Theme: soft and sweet, unquenchable, takes to itself power and profundity.
--- > two musics utterly at variance: loud and brash :versus: deep and wide and beautiful & slow and blended with immeasurable sorrow - - - > most triumphant notes of the loud brash vain theme are taken and woven into the other's solemn pattern.

Whereas the Second theme fights against the discord in a Good versus Evil formula, seemingly on Evil's terms (that of power), the Third theme seeks the good while suffering evil, and evil cannot overcome it. The italicized theme is a particularly Christian notion. It is exhibited throughout LotR in Frodo, for example, the more he suffers, by which he learns greater wisdom and becomes capable of greater compassion.

It is also seen in Beren and Luthien. Out of love she sacrifices everything for Beren. Arwen does the same for Elessar. Frodo does it for the whole Shire, and really for all Middle Earth.

Finrod Felagund does it to save Beren. By contrast, Thingol is an exemplar of the Second Theme in his failure to put love above honor in regard to Beren and Luthien.

05-15-2011, 02:05 PM	#8
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Thanks, Aiwendil & Legate for the clarifications. What is then interesting to me is that towards the end of the song, there are two themes in competition, so to speak, the loud and brash theme, and the deep and profound and beautiful one. Below follows much speculation: Whether the Elves are part of both the 2nd and 3rd or just the 3rd matters little to me. In my mind it boils down to this: (1) First Theme: Reality (2) Melkor's discord: Evil ----> result, discord (3) Second Theme: Powers introduced to contend with the Evil ---- > in the end Melkor has the mastery (4) Third Theme: soft and sweet, unquenchable, takes to itself power and profundity. --- > two musics utterly at variance: loud and brash :versus: deep and wide and beautiful & slow and blended with immeasurable sorrow - - - > most triumphant notes of the loud brash vain theme are taken and woven into the other's solemn pattern. Whereas the Second theme fights against the discord in a Good versus Evil formula, seemingly on Evil's terms (that of power), the Third theme seeks the good while suffering evil, and evil cannot overcome it. The italicized theme is a particularly Christian notion. It is exhibited throughout LotR in Frodo, for example, the more he suffers, by which he learns greater wisdom and becomes capable of greater compassion. It is also seen in Beren and Luthien. Out of love she sacrifices everything for Beren. Arwen does the same for Elessar. Frodo does it for the whole Shire, and really for all Middle Earth. Finrod Felagund does it to save Beren. By contrast, Thingol is an exemplar of the Second Theme in his failure to put love above honor in regard to Beren and Luthien.