[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would really be interested in exploring this point of view as it sheds light on, for example, Saruman, as I think most of our discussions here have tended towards an easy acceptance of the narrative's opinion of him.

Originally Posted by Fordim

But at the same time he is still a character in a story and not a real person, so I can only make sense of him in relation to other characters

Well I for one enjoy any discussion of Saruman as he is fascinating! Yes, I understand what you mean, that there can be two ways of analysing characters - either in context of the entire text, which is how we encounter them (coloured by other characters' opinions, reported behaviour and so forth, which is particularly relevant with Saruman) or alone, isolated within their part of the story. One of the reasons that these CbC discussions are so good is that it gives us a perfect opportunity to do just that.

When we read about a character we can only learn so much in any case, gleaning snippets from what has been put before us; in Tolkien's case we learn a lot more from their interactions and behaviour than from any interior monologues. So it pays to read closely.

And there's an odd thing, if you think about it, any character's mere existence is simply due to the fact that they play a part in the story. So we can analyse them or try to speculate on where exactly they went wrong, or how it came to be that they did the right thing, but it was all in the hands of the author all along.

But now I've wandered into one of the thorniest part of the woods...

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not sure I'd put it like that. I think a better way of phrasing it is that he would have preferred to have it in his own hands. His expressed desire it to have it locked away unused somewhere. He only planned to pull it out at the uttermost need (which I think shows that he did not understand it all that well because the uttermost need would probably be just a bit too late).

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

That makes me wonder why he was mad at Faramir at all for not getting it. Did Denethor think that the Ring would be the safest away from Sauron if it were in Gondor? Or did he really mean to use it, but said "I would hide it" so Gandalf would not know his real intention? Why did he want to have the Ring in his hands at all if he only thinks of hiding it, when there could be a whole lot of other hiding places?

When I came to the conclusion that Denethor 'needed' the Ring, it was pretty much in the way that Lhunardawen says. His anger at Faramir for not securing it, and his actions in sending Boromir (not only a beloved son, but a vital part of his military) suggest that he was determined to get it, despite the cost being high (the risk to Boromir and estrangement from Faramir). I would have thought that only need would have driven him to that. But I too think he may have been lying when he said he would just have hidden it.

Comparing Denethor with Theoden, we are lucky in that we get to see the King of Rohan after his period of madness. We see him in a variety of situations, including those which are relatively happy, such as talking to Merry as they ride. But we never get to see Denethor in those kinds of situations, we only get to see him at extremes. If we visit a town when it is raining and all the shops are shut we might think it's a horrible place and if we never go back nothing will change our opinion; that is how we see Denethor sadly. but as I've said, maybe that's how we have to see him, as he's a character, there to fulfill a purpose.